Commercial filmmaking can be a lucrative and steady paycheck that many filmmakers may not consider within the typical model.
This week David Mancao, producer for Sasha Group, shares how you can break into ad agency work, no matter where you live. David lives in a small market and produces projects for large brands throughout the U.S.
Watch to see how you can start working at an ad agency in your city
Key Points:
1:22 – How he got started
8:20 – Getting started at Sasha Group
18:15 – Money in commercial shoots
20:41 – Agency fees & contracts
23:23 – Creativity in job role
32:09 – How to connect with local ad agencies
37:31 – Favorite tools of the trade
38:47 – Something going wrong
49:02 – Trends in ad agencies
Links:
Sasha Group
Studio Binder
Connect with David on LinkedIn
Full Transcript:
David Mancao (00:00):
When I was talking to project manager, I was like, “Hey, out of transparency, I have no idea what to rate myself. What is something that feels comfortable for you guys?” She was like, “Well, I was thinking we can do 150 an hour, and then that’s about a $900 day. Then maybe that’s like 4,000 a week for a rate. Does that sound good to you?” I’m like, “Yep, that sounds… Let me think about that for a moment.” 4,000 for one week, as a 25 year old, “Yep, that sounds good. Yeah.” “You’re good with that?” “I’m good with that.”
Tanya Musgrave (00:36):
Welcome to The Practical Filmmaker, an educational podcast brought to you by the Filmmaker Institute and Sunscreen Film Festival, where industry professionals talk nuts and bolts and the steps they took to find their success today. On today’s show, David Mancao schools us in the world of commercial production for an ad agency with his work as a producer at the Sasha Group, a VaynerX company. Find the full transcripts and more at thepracticalfilmmaker.com.
Tanya Musgrave (00:58):
I’m your host, Tanya Musgrave, and today we are exploring the commercial side with a producer at the Sasha Group, a VaynerX company, David Mancao. Welcome to the show.
David Mancao (01:06):
Hey, what’s up, Tanya?
Tanya Musgrave (01:10):
Not much. Just in my friend’s basement as we’re continuing during the holidays. So yeah. I’m east side now.
David Mancao (01:20):
Nice.
Tanya Musgrave (01:21):
Tell me about your journey so far. How did you get here?
David Mancao (01:24):
I didn’t mean to become a producer. I didn’t even mean to get into the commercial world at all. I mean, most college students who get into the film world and change their major from pre-med nursing to film production like me, they… Yeah, I know. I was going to be a doctor, interventional radiologist with an emphasis in pediatrics. I was like, “Nope, this isn’t it.”
Tanya Musgrave (01:45):
Wow.
David Mancao (01:46):
I switched my major. I actually met BJ Pasinger in the dorm my freshman year. I believe he’s on the podcast. They were writing scripts and I was like, “That is what…” I’m learning about cells and messenger proteins and a bunch of other science crap. Respect to science people. My brother’s a med student, major respect to them, respect to doctors and nurses. It’s just not for me.
David Mancao (02:12):
So I switched my major and I’m thinking, “All right, cool. I like TV. I’ve been watching TV my whole entire life. I like going to movies. Been watching movies my whole life. Want to learn how to do this thing. I’m going to go to Hollywood. I’m going to get in a writer’s room. I’m going to do television. I’m going to do movies, and that’s what’s going to happen. It didn’t.
David Mancao (02:34):
My senior year, we were looking for internships. I had gotten connected with Pathfinder Films, local Chattanooga. I got on one project with them. I was an actor. I was supposed to be this Scandinavian weird character, no lines or anything. And I’m like, “I am the most opposite from…” I’m not a blonde haired, blue-eyed, beautiful Swedish boy or anything like that. I am brown skin, black hair. It was a small bit part. I was really only supposed to be there for like 30 minutes, just to be this random bit part.
David Mancao (03:10):
But I ended up staying the whole entire production day, unpaid, and just connected with the team and connected with them. When it came time for my internship, I was like, “Hey, do you guys need an intern,” under the disguise of looking for advice. I wanted to know like, “Hey, I’m in my senior year. What advice can you bestow upon me, a lowly college senior, you professional adults?”
Tanya Musgrave (03:34):
Got it.
David Mancao (03:34):
How to talk with them and just built up a relationship with Leif, Lucky, and Chris, and eventually just talking to them more and more. It was like, “Hey, you want to be our intern? We never had an intern. But you want to figure that out?” I think that’s a common theme of my career thus far. I’ve created these roles and responsibilities for myself in these various institutions that I’ve been a part of. So I became their intern and worked on a lot of different productions and projects with them, like EPB fiber optics in Chattanooga, Mueller.
David Mancao (04:08):
I also did some work with Hilton Hotels with them as well. Yeah. So then I graduate, move down to Atlanta. I was like, “All right, this is where I’m going to make my break. I’m going to find a way to step into the film world in Atlanta, Y’allywood. It was really difficult because I didn’t know anybody there. Those few months were very, very discouraging. I did my best. I was sending out my reel to everybody. I was sending out my website. I was doing cold emails, just trying to find ways to connect.
David Mancao (04:37):
Tried going to mixers. I ended up going to an ad club mixer in Atlanta, which was pretty cool. It was a Super Bowl ad mixer. Started learning a little bit more about the commercial world, like who were the major players. So BBDO, JWT, McCann. Those are some of these big agencies, and realizing the fact of like, okay, I might not be able to go into Hollywood and be a screenwriter or a director right out the gate, as poetic and romantic as that sounds, and the idea of going to do that Hollywood thing and sleeping on couches till you make it because you’ve found the right person on set. I didn’t have that patience or fortitude.
David Mancao (05:23):
I have lots of friends who are doing that, who have done that, and who did that. Just had a certain self-awareness of that not being for me. Didn’t really land any sort of jobs. Then, at that point, I decided to cast my net out to the country. I was like, “All right.” LinkedIn, loved LinkedIn. Got one of my first big jobs out of college with LinkedIn. It was a small 14-person agency out of Toledo, Ohio. It’s called Madhouse. Those guys are great.
David Mancao (05:52):
The posting that I saw on LinkedIn, and then when I went to their website, it was for a video editor. I’m like, “I’ve edited videos before. I’m not the greatest, but let me connect with them.” My website, I mean, I have producer, director, writer type stuff on it. But they saw my work and we had a conversation. They were like, “So you’re an editor?” I was like, “I mean, yeah, I can edit. It’s not my favorite thing. I mean, I’ve done a whole lot of producing and production coordinating and doing set logistics. I’ve been a AD on a whole bunch of the college projects and a couple of commercial projects as well.”
David Mancao (06:28):
They were like, “You know what? We actually don’t really have that position. We have a small five-person team and we’re all in-house. We have a creative director. We have a photographer. We have this 3D animator who’s also like a DP. We have this other 2D animator who does various production stuff too. We have a couple of high school, college interns that are here for the summer as well.” But they didn’t have a producer on their team. So I was like, “Well, I can do that.”
David Mancao (06:58):
So I pack up my stuff and I move to Ohio. I’m there for a year. Worked with them. Worked on projects for Owens Corning, Owens-Illinois. Those are some big manufacturers of roofing tiles, Owens Corning. The Pink Panther insulation, that’s that company. They do glass, so Coke bottles, beer bottles, your salsa jars.
Tanya Musgrave (07:26):
So you were working with product companies.
David Mancao (07:28):
Yeah. These were these product companies. A lot of that stuff that we were doing was B2B based as well. So not necessarily consumer facing, but how is that still facing within the industry? Who are the contractors that are buying the materials? Also did a lot of work in the educational space, higher ed, because apparently colleges want a lot of money. We were making videos to support various universities, capital campaigns, Hamilton College in New York, in Catholic University of America.
David Mancao (08:00):
Also did a project for Purdue University for their sesquicentennial year, their 150th anniversary, which was really, really cool. We needed to move back home. My fiance was back. We were planning on getting married and we knew that we needed to be back in Chattanooga. We moved back to Chattanooga. I freelance for a little bit. Through Pathfinder, through my internship, I got connected with VaynerMedia, which at the time was turning into Sasha Group.
Tanya Musgrave (08:26):
Yeah. Okay.
David Mancao (08:27):
I met their senior project manager, formulated a relationship there. Freelanced a couple of projects with them, and eventually, she informed me that she had gotten me a position within the company and she was moving back to New York. They needed a producer project manager type person to help fill in the gap that she would be leaving with her new position. In March of 2020, I signed all my paperwork to get onto the team at Sasha Group. And then we hit lockdown. And then-
Tanya Musgrave (09:00):
Oh no.
David Mancao (09:03):
It was great timing because now I was able to get into a big agency. Sasha Group, at the time, probably had about 50 people. We’re up to close to 80 now I want to say.
Tanya Musgrave (09:16):
Wow. Okay. Okay.
David Mancao (09:17):
We have offices in New York, LA, Chattanooga.
Tanya Musgrave (09:19):
When you say 80 people, I’m assuming that it’s different than a three-man band-
David Mancao (09:27):
Yeah. It’s totally different.
Tanya Musgrave (09:28):
I’m guessing it’s made up of…
David Mancao (09:31):
It’s like 80 people at the Sasha Group, and we are connected to all the other VaynerX companies. Gary Vaynerchuk is our big CEO. That man loves companies. He loves businesses and he loves making companies. So we’re part of the VaynerX ecosystem. We have brother, sister companies with VaynerMedia, VaynerProductions, VaynerCommerce, Gallery Media Group, which does publishing and stuff as well.
David Mancao (10:02):
When you’re taking into account the whole entire VaynerX or the Vaynerverse, as I like to call it, you have close to like a thousand to 1,200 people, maybe even 1,500 people worldwide, because there are offices in APAC or Asia Pacific and London, and recently we opened an office, a VaynerX office, in Mexico City.
Tanya Musgrave (10:26):
Where does Sasha Group fit in within VaynerX?
David Mancao (10:30):
Sure. VaynerX has a bunch of different companies. VaynerMedia, they’re serving more of these Fortune 500 companies. Gary wanted to get back to the entrepreneurial roots where he came from. His dad, Sasha Vaynerchuk, big entrepreneur, immigrant story. If you don’t know that, I encourage you to learn about Gary and learn about his dad. He’ll really inspire you. A lot of people were coming over to VaynerMedia and they just didn’t have the budgets.
David Mancao (10:57):
They didn’t have a quarter million dollars just to make a video or… Sasha, they were also doing some education consulting within VaynerMedia at the time as well. So what they decided to do was, “Let’s formulate a company that can serve these smaller to medium-sized businesses with growth mindsets.” We’re not talking to Anheuser-Busch, which is a VaynerMedia client or craft, which is a VaynerMedia client. Those are huge titans, Budweiser, and Cheeto, and stuff like that. But we’re talking to the smaller mom and pop businesses, people that are trying to get the gears up and rolling. So-
Tanya Musgrave (11:38):
So you work with businesses like…
David Mancao (11:41):
Ole Smoky Moonshine and Whiskey. That’s another big CPG client that we have.
Tanya Musgrave (11:45):
CPG?
David Mancao (11:47):
CPG is consumer packaged goods.
Tanya Musgrave (11:49):
Okay.
David Mancao (11:52):
The chips consumer packaged goods.
Tanya Musgrave (11:55):
Got it. All right. Okay.
David Mancao (11:55):
Things that you can buy off shelves.
Tanya Musgrave (11:56):
Okay. Got it.
David Mancao (11:57):
We also do work with a company called Columbia Care, which is MSO, which is a multi-state operation for cannabis. It’s really interesting. It’s a wide range of work. I’ll be working on chips and then I’ll be working on cannabis projects and run launch. Then I’ll be working on to pudding commercial. I recently just came off of Kozy Shack, which is a pudding brand under the Land O’Lakes portfolio.
Tanya Musgrave (12:27):
What is your specific role? I mean, you say it’s like, say, 50 people. I’m guessing not all of them are filmmakers or designers or something… Who make up the company?
David Mancao (12:39):
No. There are different departments that you’re working with, and we’re all trying to work together harmoniously to have our creative and to have our media and have that work together to serve our client. We’ll have our media team and they’re going to be doing media buying. They’re going to be doing media strategy, “Cool. So this ad is going to go on Facebook. This ad’s going to go on YouTube. We need a six-second placement here. We’re going to need a 15-second placement here. This is how many dollars is going to go behind this ad in this region.”
Tanya Musgrave (13:06):
Okay.
David Mancao (13:07):
That’s the media department. We have a creative team. That’s going to be our creative directors, our art directors, our designers, copywriters, developing the creative. Then we’ll have our account strategy team. They’re going to be our client services, essentially, working directly with our client liaison. Then we’ll have our project management team, which I work closely with, making sure that all the scopes that we’re signing, all these projects that we’re setting up and we’re doing them, that we’re on budget and on track, and on time.
Tanya Musgrave (13:40):
Okay. Okay, nice.
David Mancao (13:42):
There are other specific niche departments as well. There is our branding team and they support specifically branding. We have an education team which works specifically on social media marketing and brand education.
Tanya Musgrave (13:54):
Got you.
David Mancao (13:55):
Recently, within Sasha Group, we are starting a Sasha Studios type of branch of the company, which is focusing on production offerings for these small to medium-sized businesses that can’t necessarily afford a $500,000 Super Bowl spot.
Tanya Musgrave (14:10):
I was going to piggyback off of that. They can’t afford that, but what realm are you working in now?
David Mancao (14:15):
That’s the crazy thing. It can range from anything. A project can be like $10,000 to $200,000.
Tanya Musgrave (14:23):
Got it.
David Mancao (14:23):
But it’s also the way how you split that up, and what is the size of your scope? I think that’s one of the things that I did not know anything about, coming out of film school, because I just learned how… Went to film school to learn how to make a damn thing, like, “All right. So this is how we write. This is how we coordinate a production. This is how we direct. And, oh, this is a cool editing transition that you can do.”
David Mancao (14:45):
Film school didn’t teach me where I can apply those skills outside of sets. Obviously, you can go to Hollywood or you can go in-house at a hospital or some sort of company that needs video, or you can go into an agency. But when you’re working like this agency world, you’re working with clients now. You’re not just making a thing for yourself because you want to make a thing. You’re making a video. You’re having a production.
David Mancao (15:15):
You’re gathering content for the purpose of whatever the goal is, for the purpose of, we are needing to sell more pudding. We are needing to raise awareness within this region that this product exists, and we’re trying to drive up sales within this market. We are trying to launch a new product. We are trying to revamp a new product. At that point, the creative skills that you have learned, these tools that you’ve learned, you’re now applying it to these goals for your clients.
David Mancao (15:51):
I think that’s something interesting that I didn’t really even think about in film school, because I’m thinking about, what’s the script that I can write? What’s the movie that I can direct? Now it’s like, “Well, what’s the best creative that I can develop? What’s the best product that I can make for this client, that-
Tanya Musgrave (16:09):
Yeah, working within context of somebody else. As in, for the majority of us, we’re not going to be making our own things. We’re going to be working within the context of somebody else’s vision and how to contribute to that.
David Mancao (16:20):
I think it’s that collaborative nature, because these clients are coming to us because we’re the experts in social media. We’re the experts in audience reach. We’re the experts in what is culturally relevant. That’s a big thing that we talk about in our company, like how do we stay culturally relevant? How can we stay on top of what’s happening on TikTok? How do we stay on top of the trends that are happening on Instagram and Facebook? What platforms are going to serve our client’s audience the best.”
David Mancao (16:49):
It’s when you’re making those content for these different platforms, it’s different from making content that’s going to be living on television or that’s going to go into your movie theater. That stuff, you’re thinking like, “Oh, a 16 by nine aspect ratio.” Or if you want to get really fancy, like 2.31 or whatever. But now we’re talking about like, “All right. We need to have a production. We’re needing to stretch out this production budget as much as we can. And we need to have deliverables that are one by one, 16 by nine, nine by 16.
David Mancao (17:21):
We need vertical because that’s TikTok and Instagram and Instagram stories and Snapchat. Thinking about like, what is the attention span, or what our consumers are consuming if you’re on your phone and you’re scrolling and scrolling and scrolling, you have like two seconds before you go to the next thing, because you’re bored. How do we captivate someone in six seconds to help convince them to click the link in the description to go to the website, or to click the buy now, the CTA, of the whole entire thing. That’s a whole entire world that I’ve stepped into.
Tanya Musgrave (17:56):
Yeah. And I’m guessing that you had to figure out also the price points for a lot of this.
David Mancao (18:01):
Yeah. It’s difficult because production is inherently an expensive thing.
Tanya Musgrave (18:08):
Yeah. Yeah.
David Mancao (18:10):
How can we be efficient with our budgets?
Tanya Musgrave (18:13):
In the past few episodes, there’s been a recurring sentiment that if you want the money, go into commercials. Everybody’s just like-
David Mancao (18:21):
Sure.
Tanya Musgrave (18:21):
“Yeah. Commercial’s where all the money is.” So is that true for crew or would you have to have ownership in a small production company, or work for an ad agency before you started seeing that tip in the scales? Essentially, they say, “Yeah, work in commercial,” but is that just for… Who is that for?
David Mancao (18:41):
I mean, so when I was freelancing as producer, I was like, “I have no idea what to rate myself. Should I do $500 a day? Should I do 300? Because I’m out of school, because I’m also insecure on what I can actually provide and what service I can give. When I was talking to project manager, I was like, “Hey, out of transparency, I have no idea what to rate myself. What is something that feels comfortable for you guys?” She was like, “Well, I was thinking we can do like 150 an hour, and then that’s about a $900 day. And then maybe that’s like 4,000 a week for a rate. Does that sound good to you?”
David Mancao (19:24):
I’m like, “Yep, that sounds… Let me think about that for a moment. 4,000 for one week. As a 25 year old, 24 year old, I’m like, “Yep. That sounds good. Yeah.” “You good with that?” “I’m good with that.” So-
Tanya Musgrave (19:47):
That’s amazing.
David Mancao (19:48):
I think it’s at different levels that you’re working at too. Someone who’s going to listen to this podcast, who’s working in motion picture studios and stuff is probably going to be like, “He’s stupid.” But I think-
Tanya Musgrave (20:08):
We’re all stupid.
David Mancao (20:08):
It’s interesting.
Tanya Musgrave (20:09):
This is the thing. I didn’t know about those rates. I have no idea what to expect or how to price myself, in that respect.
David Mancao (20:16):
In my mind, a difference is that they’re coming to you for a reason, right?
Tanya Musgrave (20:20):
Yeah.
David Mancao (20:20):
They’ve seen your work and they’ve seen your skills. And they’re like, “Oh, I want to have some good quality work like that.” Whether you’re your own freelance videographer type person, or whether you’re working as a line producer, or working as an AC, or working as a production manager or UPM or coordinator on commercial production,
Tanya Musgrave (20:40):
Are you essentially a freelancer still, but just with bigger clients or are you salary?
David Mancao (20:50):
Personally, I am salaried.
Tanya Musgrave (20:53):
Okay.
David Mancao (20:53):
I’m salaried within the company.
Tanya Musgrave (20:54):
Okay. Okay.
David Mancao (20:54):
In agency world, you’ll have your agency fee. That’s going to be covering the man hours that it takes for the agency, our creative team, our media team, our account team, strategy team. That’s what their fee will be. And then there’s going to be the out-of-pocket expenses. That might be, okay, we’re doing a video production and that’s going to cost, let’s say, like $50,000 or something like that, which could be really…
David Mancao (21:24):
$50,000 goes by like that. It goes by so fast. But let’s just say it’s a $50,000 production. That’s going to be our out-of-pocket expense. That’s how a lot of these contracts are formed. When I’m the producer, I’m figuring out like, “All right. We have this $50,000 and we need to make a thing. What’s the best way to do that? Am I going to be contracting these freelancers within my network, or am I going to go to another production company to partner up with them and utilize that service?” But noting the fact that I have this $50,000 to utilize for production, and talent, locations, and all those things.
David Mancao (21:59):
Obviously, when you’re partnering with a production company, this is a budget that you’re giving them essentially to make the thing.
Tanya Musgrave (22:06):
Go ahead and make the thing. Yep. Okay.
David Mancao (22:08):
Yeah.
Tanya Musgrave (22:08):
All right.
David Mancao (22:10):
With our partnership and with our creative direction and approvals with clients, because that’s another part of the beast too, I guess, in studio, film land, the studio is essentially your client, I would think.
Tanya Musgrave (22:26):
Yeah.
David Mancao (22:26):
Whoever’s looking at these cuts and stuff like that for these movies, like, “Oh, let’s change that cut. Let’s do that.” But for us, it’s interesting because we’ll have production and we’ll make a thing. But we’re also working with the creative team, the creative director, who would be different than the director on set.
Tanya Musgrave (22:47):
Yeah.
David Mancao (22:49):
In my mind, that was a differentiation of like, “Oh, how does this work? And seeing that relationship. But like-
Tanya Musgrave (22:55):
Yeah. Yeah. So is the creative director the one that’s working with the client then?
David Mancao (22:59):
Yeah. Our creative director will be more client facing.
Tanya Musgrave (23:02):
Okay. All right. There you go. Okay.
David Mancao (23:03):
We’re trying to make a thing and then we need to make sure that’s working well for the client, and receiving their notes, and adjusting our notes and stuff, to make sure that what we’re making, we feel confident in, that will achieve the goals that the client has set for us. And that’s something that the client will be proud and happy of too.
Tanya Musgrave (23:22):
Yeah. Yeah. What creative opportunities exist right now within your reach?
David Mancao (23:27):
Within my reach personally?
Tanya Musgrave (23:28):
Yeah.
David Mancao (23:30):
I think right now there is the creative job of working with, in Sasha Group, to develop the Sasha Studios side of the company, like, how do we develop production in a smart way? I think there’s certain level of creativity with business building also, which is something that I never thought I would say. It’s strategic and it’s almost like building a puzzle. Like how do you do this thing? Working with our creative team and letting them know that these producers that you’re working with can be a creative resource that can help guide a process.
David Mancao (24:06):
You have this amazing idea of the main talent jumping out of a helicopter, saving a chicken, and there are explosions, and you’re over the Pacific Ocean, that’s awesome. That’s cool. How are we supposed to do that with a $50,000 budget?
Tanya Musgrave (24:23):
Yeah.
David Mancao (24:24):
Let’s reign that in… Sometimes it’s easy just to say, “No, we can’t do that because of the budget constrictions,” or the time restriction, or the usage restriction. “Hey, we want Snoop Dogg in this.” What? We don’t have Snoop Dogg money. But if you can work with the creative team to get the essence and get to the core of what they’re trying to say with the creative, that’s another area of creativity within producing that I’m exploring and discovering.
Tanya Musgrave (25:00):
Yeah. Yeah. Are you still actually wanting to transition or is that not at the moment?
David Mancao (25:06):
No, I think if there’s opportunities to do more directing and creative development… I do miss that aspect of the job. I miss that part a whole lot. But I also like what I’m doing now too. There is the other part of it, is I’m paid to make stories, and commercials, and videos, and do production. They’re giving me money to do that. And with that money, I can support my wife, and I can support my kid, and I can live comfortably.
David Mancao (25:35):
That’s something I didn’t think I would be ever… I did not know how that would pan out, going into this world of filmmaking. You know people can make money. You know people can make a lot of money. You also know people can not make any money.
Tanya Musgrave (25:52):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David Mancao (25:53):
I think the want of wanting to be a director and writing and doing creative development, whether that’s in the commercial space or if that’s eventually transitioning into a narrative film, television space, that’d be cool. But I think the biggest thing right now that I’m learning is, how do I be content within my journey and acknowledge the fact that I have come this far so far.
Tanya Musgrave (26:19):
Absolutely.
David Mancao (26:20):
I think that’s really huge. I turn 28 this year, in two months, and I graduated 2017. So I’ve been out in the professional world for five years, and for me to already, within five years, get to where I’m at, made three jobs for myself at Pathfinder, Madhouse, and, “There’s a position open already at the Sasha Group.” But carve that and develop that into what I am making it now, to be more of this producer position and taking a moment to step back and be grateful of like where I am in the journey, I think is really huge for me.
David Mancao (26:57):
Gary V is our big CEO, face of the company and everything. And if you see any of this content on Instagram or YouTube, you know he’s always swearing. But one of the big things that he’s always saying is like, “You’re young as F.” He’s always saying that. He’s like, “You can be 20, you can be 30 and still be young as F.” Or 45 and you’re still young, and you have like 20 years ahead of you.
David Mancao (27:23):
I think, for me, the big lesson that I’m learning right now is, how do I be content where I’m at, knowing that I have my the rest of my twenties, all my thirties, all my forties, all my fifties, to keep on working on this thing that is a career. I think there is a hunger that, when you’re out of school, you want to just do everything and you want to work hard, grind hard.
David Mancao (27:52):
I think those are important and great things. But at a certain point, I think it’s also important just to acknowledge the fact of what you are doing. I’m 27, I’m not going to be a director of a feature film. It has happened in the past. People have done it. Those are unicorns and…
Tanya Musgrave (28:13):
Yeah. Sydney.
David Mancao (28:15):
Right. Yeah. I didn’t graduate with her, but I went to school with Sydney. I was like, “Yeah, awesome. That’s great for her. And she was able to find a way to do that.” Like many American students, I have a lot of student debt. It’s interesting now because everyone’s like, “You don’t have to go to film school. You don’t have to incur debt.” But for me to get where I am, I had to incur that debt because I didn’t even know that filmmaking could have been a viable career path when I was in high school, and I stumbled upon that. But I graduated school, I want to say, at least like 70 to 80,000, if not more.
Tanya Musgrave (28:51):
Oh my stars. Yeah.
David Mancao (28:53):
And that’s private loans and federal loans. I had Sallie Mae and-
Tanya Musgrave (28:56):
Mercy.
David Mancao (28:58):
You hear these stories of these college students that are leaving to go to LA and trying to work on productions and PA-ing, and they’re sleeping on couches. That’s already difficult. LA is already expensive. Then you have to tack on the fact that you have to do $500 a month, if not more, on student loans, like in my case, at least.
Tanya Musgrave (29:24):
Dude, yeah. One of my friends, yeah. It was like $1,200 every month. That’s rent.
David Mancao (29:30):
Say, like in LA, I have a friend right now. He has one bedroom in a house essentially, and he’s paying a thousand bucks. So let’s say my rent in LA is a thousand bucks, plus that 500 for my student loans. That’s already $1,500 that I know that I need to make per month. That’s not including any of my living expenses for food or gas or any other bills that I might need to pay. People fricking do it, man.
Tanya Musgrave (30:00):
Yeah. Yeah.
David Mancao (30:01):
They do it. And I have so much respect for everybody’s doing that. I just did not feel confident or comfortable in doing that. I think that is totally okay. You are not less of a person if you don’t go to LA to sleep on a couch for three months and grind it out. That was part of the narrative that I heard when I was in school. This is like, “If you’re going to work in LA, or if you’re going to like work in this industry, you have to do this thing. And it’s a lot of sacrifice.”
Tanya Musgrave (30:33):
Yeah. It’s kind of a badge of honor. Yeah.
David Mancao (30:34):
Yeah. It’s like, that story is so romantic. The story is romantic, but living that, in my mind, when I come to the practicality of that, it’s just… Whatever.
Tanya Musgrave (30:50):
I think that this speaks to what I was wanting to do, exploring other types of filmmaking because not everybody does go out to Hollywood. By and large, the majority of my friends who are in filmmaking, they are not working within the narrative space. They aren’t-
David Mancao (31:11):
No. There’s so many more avenues.
Tanya Musgrave (31:12):
Yeah. There are so many avenues. So I want to explore those and just be like, “Hey, oh my gosh. What about outdoor filmmakers? I can’t even find them on IMDB.” Oh, wait, there’s like a whole other vein of how you can earn.
David Mancao (31:24):
Anybody who’s trying to do video and do production or photography, it’s finding ways to make connections. Because, yeah, you hear in LA, “You’ve got to hustle and you’ve got to down set and get three people’s names and contacts and follow up with them. But that’s also the same to other people. You don’t just have to talk to production people. If you can connect with agencies at your hometown… If you live in Denver, Colorado, there’s a whole bunch of agencies there. See if you can find a way to connect with a creative director or a project manager or an account lead.
Tanya Musgrave (32:09):
Where would you? Where would you connect with these people?
David Mancao (32:11):
Sure. I mean, there’s cold emailing, which-
Tanya Musgrave (32:17):
You just Google ad agencies and just kind of-
David Mancao (32:19):
Yeah.
Tanya Musgrave (32:20):
Okay. Yeah. What person? What person would I cold email?
David Mancao (32:23):
Google your ad agencies. If you’re a person wanting to work in production, see if they have a producer at the agency and connect with the producer, because a producer is going to be doing a bunch of that production coordination, and they’re going to be the ones hiring PAs to directors to production companies.
Tanya Musgrave (32:39):
Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
David Mancao (32:40):
I think, from a practicality standpoint, if you want to find work, see if you can get connected with the producer at an agency.
Tanya Musgrave (32:48):
Okay.
David Mancao (32:49):
If you want to understand more of the creative development of the world, like what does it take to make content for a company or a business, connect with the members of the creative team, senior art directors, associate creative directors, creative directors, group creative directors. See if you can find ways to connect with them because they’re going to be able to have the insight of, how do you get on that creative path and how do you develop content and stuff?
David Mancao (33:14):
I say photographers, because they’re the ones that I’m connecting with and hiring out the most. If you’re a photographer showing off your work to the creative director is like, “Hey, this is my work. Want to hear what you’re doing, but this is what I’ve done.” If they like that work that you’re doing, they’re looking for creative assets too. They’re looking for creative resources that they can freelance to be like, “Hey, I need to bring this photographer for my next project. Producer, let’s connect with this guy and see if he fits within our budget.” You want to-
Tanya Musgrave (33:40):
Okay. I actually have a question on that. I used to be a photographer. It was a PPE in New York. It’s PhotoPlus Expo. They have it every single fall. I don’t know if they do it anymore, but there’s two main things. One was in Vegas every spring and the other one was in fall in New York. They had a panel of all of these ad… I get, like they’re all creative directors of magazines more than anything else. So photography, we were all photographers there and asking like, “How do I get on the cover of these magazines?”
Tanya Musgrave (34:19):
And think every year they maybe had one actual $50,000 shoot, or maybe $100,000 shoot. It might have whoever, Taylor Swift on the cover, that kind of thing. But I still remember the lady saying, every single morning when she came into her office, she completely cleared out her inbox. As in, she selected them all and deleted them, because so many people were emailing her about like, “Hey, look at my stuff. Look at my stuff.”
Tanya Musgrave (34:48):
So what would be your advice to cut through that? Do they have in-person staff? Especially now. Are there functions? Is there like an online hub where people will go and see? Is it just they scroll Instagram and find this stuff?
David Mancao (35:06):
Sure. I think cold emails, cold calls are one of the first things, things you’re doing. If you can get some sort of warm intro, I think that’s going to be the best. For me, it was Lucky at Pathfinder who intro-ed me into Sasha Group. It wasn’t me sending a cold email or a cold thing. If you can’t get a warm intro, I would utilize that. That’s where your network… Start with one and that’s how you can get connected with more and more people.
Tanya Musgrave (35:39):
Got you.
David Mancao (35:39):
When it comes to finding… You don’t have any network connections, that’s hard to do. I think, at that point, trying to go to as many of those mixer events as possible.
Tanya Musgrave (35:53):
Would you find those like [crosstalk 00:35:55]-
David Mancao (35:55):
There used to be ad club like AAF, American Advertising Federation. I think that’s what it is. AIG, I think that’s for a graphic design group as well. They had creative mornings once a month before the pandemic, that happened in Chattanooga, which was really awesome because you were able to connect with more creatives within your immediate area. I need to check back and see if that’s up and running again. But that was really, really great.
Tanya Musgrave (36:24):
Nice.
David Mancao (36:24):
I was saying, connecting with the creative directors and the associate creative directors. And if you are able to get in with them, great. But also realize, kind of what you’re saying, those people also have some of the most taxing schedules, and it takes so much of their time. But a designer on the team might have a little bit more time or flexibility to chat with you and doesn’t have that senior responsibility.
David Mancao (36:51):
A copywriter might have a little bit more of that. I think that’s something interesting too. Don’t try to go for like the president of a company of 500 people. But see if you can go for it, because if you get that… Shoot for the moon and if you land on it, great. But connecting with mid mid-level people, not necessarily just… Don’t focus just only on the senior people, but connecting with the mid-level people too to see what they’re doing there. And ask for advice. That’s my biggest thing. Just ask for advice and learn about them and build those relationships.
Tanya Musgrave (37:27):
Now we’re going to ask about some of the tools of your trade. Old, reliable though. We’re going to go for the old one first
David Mancao (37:34):
Knowing how to use spreadsheets. I think that’s the most boring thing in the world. I remember in high school, I was taking a spreadsheets class and I was like, “This sucks. I absolutely hate this.” I’m on spreadsheets every single day now and they-
Tanya Musgrave (37:47):
Oh my word. This summer on the feature. Yes, absolutely. Spreadsheets, please. It’s so good.
David Mancao (37:53):
If you want to be a producer, understand spreadsheets and understand budgets. How do you make a good spreadsheet? How do you use the functions? Spreadsheets are the biggest thing for me.
Tanya Musgrave (38:03):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David Mancao (38:05):
Learn how to make it pretty for the creatives so they can understand it, because they’re more likely to look at a pretty thing than a plain white spreadsheet with…
Tanya Musgrave (38:14):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
David Mancao (38:15):
I think that’s the old reliable.
Tanya Musgrave (38:18):
Now for your favorite new gadget, one that revolutionizes the way that you work.
David Mancao (38:21):
As it relates to production, I think the other big tool that I love using is StudioBinder. It’s a great online software. Can help you break down your scripts. Develops call sheets for you. You can put in your contacts in there. It’ll also send out the call sheets and then when you’re on the receiving end, you can confirm on there. That’s very, very nice. That’s my big thing.
Tanya Musgrave (38:47):
Tell me a story of when something went wrong and what you did to fix it or grow from it.
David Mancao (38:53):
One of the things I can think about, it’s not a specific story, but just having a good contingency and buffer because you want to be able to have that when something does come wrong. Whatever the full out-of-pocket production budget looks like. I’ll try to tack on an extra 10 to 20% contingency buffer. It’s so unpredictable if you go over production days or you need to have… When you’re able to have that buffer, you can like sleep a little bit easier at night, because let’s be real, if you’re in production, you’re thinking about production 24/7, and you’re going to be thinking about that even when the clock is off. It’s all consuming. It’s absolutely invasive to your mind.
David Mancao (39:46):
Then when you’re worried about the budget and the bottom line for that, that’s also really terrifying because the last thing you want to do is go back to your client and you’ve told them, “Hey, so I know we said that it was going to cost a hundred thousand dollars for this thing. We actually need 10,000 more dollars.”
Tanya Musgrave (40:08):
Yeah. Oh my stars.
David Mancao (40:12):
Nobody wants to have that conversation.
Tanya Musgrave (40:12):
No.
David Mancao (40:14):
Because it’s already taken a long time to get to the point where they’re comfortable giving you a hundred thousand dollars.
Tanya Musgrave (40:20):
Yeah. Yeah. [crosstalk 00:40:21]-
David Mancao (40:21):
And now you’re asking for more? So I would just go ahead… For me, just because production is so unpredictable, because you never know, it’s like, oh, now the director wants to have storyboards, or now we’re needing more talent, or one of the talent got sick from COVID and now we need a backup or whatever. Having that contingency budget. And then, also, along with the contingency budget, I’d also say, have contingency plans. Assume like if the talent gets COVID, make sure you have a backup talent that is on standby on the day.
David Mancao (40:57):
Overages do happen. I think like being able to clearly explain to the account team, “Hey, this overage is happening. This is why it’s happening.” And having them understand that, and then they can have a conversation with the client. And that’s good too. There’s definitely a story in my mind, and I don’t know if I want to share it or not. But I think like there is a… I was working on a-
Tanya Musgrave (41:16):
Now I’m super curious.
David Mancao (41:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a project and I assumed that part of the budget should be allocated to the agency team. But then the creative director assumed that budget was going to be allocated towards production. It was about like $2,000 or so where we were trying to figure out like, “Oh, shoot, where is this coming from?” Luckily, we had our contingency buffer, so everything was okay. But if we didn’t, it would be like, “Oh no, there is…”
David Mancao (41:45):
When you’re working on a project and it’s like $200,000, you’re trying to make every single one of those dollars work really, really hard for you. 2,000 is a whole lot of money to like… You don’t want to just throw it away. It’s not like, “Oh yeah. It’s like a candy bar that I’m going to put at crafty.” No, that’s $200,000 that can be reallocated for production design in front of camera for two more extra days of color or…
Tanya Musgrave (42:10):
Wait, 200,000 or 2,000?
David Mancao (42:14):
Like $2,000.
Tanya Musgrave (42:15):
Okay. Okay. Okay.
David Mancao (42:16):
Yeah. Yeah. $2,000 out of $200,000.
Tanya Musgrave (42:20):
Yeah. Yeah. Got it. Got it. Got it.
David Mancao (42:23):
Yeah.
Tanya Musgrave (42:23):
So-
David Mancao (42:24):
Man, I want to meet the colorist who charges $200,000 for two days.
Tanya Musgrave (42:28):
Me too. I want to be that guy.
David Mancao (42:31):
Yeah. Just [crosstalk 00:42:34]-
Tanya Musgrave (42:34):
So actually-
David Mancao (42:34):
… the contrast a little bit.
Tanya Musgrave (42:39):
Just put a lot on it. It’ll [inaudible 00:42:41].
David Mancao (42:41):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s it. That’s [crosstalk 00:42:43]-
Tanya Musgrave (42:43):
Instagram filters. We have a listener question from our Instagram, @practicalfilmmaker. What is your biggest challenge or obstacle in working with clients? You’ve learned some things like only two rounds of revisions, that kind of thing, maybe from a design perspective. But they’re wanting to know, from a film perspective.
David Mancao (43:05):
Interestingly, whenever we write our scopes, we try to say two rounds of revisions also. Working with clients is interesting. You don’t know what kind of client you’re going to get. You can have a client that’s going to be super involved and is really on board with the creative vision and just gets it. It’s like, “Oh, yeah, I totally understand that. I’m vibing with it. Great. Awesome. Maybe let’s tweak the music a little bit.” And you can have a creative working relationship with them.
David Mancao (43:33):
Then you’re going to have the clients that are not going to be creative. They’re just caring about the money. They know they need to invest in creative so they can sell more products, so they can get more money, and they can say, “Hey, the marketing department did this. The metrics came back good and we sold more stuff because we invested more money.” But when they’re talking about creative, it gets scary with them.
David Mancao (44:02):
I think, for me, it’s hard when the client doesn’t trust you. Not necessarily me specifically, but you as the agency, you as a partner, to create creative, you know?
Tanya Musgrave (44:18):
Yeah.
David Mancao (44:18):
To create creative.
Tanya Musgrave (44:19):
Like to create the best product that will actually help them.
David Mancao (44:23):
Yeah. They’re coming to us to creative problem solve. And then they’re afraid of like, “Oh, is this going to work?” I think fear can be the biggest barrier with working with clients. This goes back to relationship building, like how do you build a relationship with the client, to let them know it’s like, “Hey, we’re not just doing this so we can have more money, so we can have a bigger profit margin on our end. We’re investing to have six talent to show that this is a lifestyle scene and people are having fun with your product. Great.” Letting them know why and having them be comfortable with the creative ideas, and what is that creative rationale.
Tanya Musgrave (45:02):
Yeah. Yeah.
David Mancao (45:02):
So like-
Tanya Musgrave (45:02):
I mean, they’re already investing money, so-
David Mancao (45:05):
Yeah. Exactly. I think how you defend the creative and consciously defend the creative, and how that rationale to them and explain it to them, like why they’re doing this, why this works. That’s where we lean on our creative directors a whole lot, leading that vision, and they’re going to be that communication conduit to the client to instill confidence with them, that, “Hey, this is a good idea that we’re doing.”
Tanya Musgrave (45:29):
Well, I’m curious how much R and D is done beforehand, or even AB testing, to see if something actually is there so they can give you metrics, kind of being like, “In this research, they will respond to this better.
David Mancao (45:49):
I actually-
Tanya Musgrave (45:50):
Yeah. You can trust us.”
David Mancao (45:52):
That’s part of it too. I mean, like we have this Vayner volume model in the Vaynerverse and it starts with an MVP, which is essentially a small piece of content to test it out. Like when we did Bojangles’, we did a bunch of MVP testing, MVP testing, minimal viable product. Well, it’s a small piece of content that we can test out, just an image. We’ll put some paid media behind it and see how it does.
David Mancao (46:22):
If it does well, we’ll try to learn about it more. We’ll test it again, test it again. And if that’s coming back like, “Oh yeah, that’s actually worked really well,” then we can put a bigger bet behind it. For example, at work, we did… It was for a Bojangles’ client and it was this idea of smell, like how do we talk about smell and the nostalgia smell? So it was this one piece of content.
David Mancao (46:45):
The idea of smell turned out really well. So we made more pieces of content talking about the nostalgia smell and things of that… How that sense of smell is so strong. And that did really well. And then, because all those pieces did really well, we did a bigger video about smell and how… There was this character, and it started out like a perfume commercial. This boy is chopping wood in the woods, and then this magical woman just appears with this perfume, and it’s like, “Hey, are you listening?”
David Mancao (47:19):
On the perfume bottle, he picks it up and then it transforms into a biscuit. It’s like, “Why is this a biscuit?” Hard cut to reality. Okay. He wasn’t smelling perfume. This isn’t a perfume commercial. He’s eating dinner with his family right now. And that did pretty well. I think when you can do stuff like that… I think there’s also AB testing that you can do with media. I think that’s when you partner with media to see like, “Hey, this spot has this voiceover, and this spot has only super titles. Which one’s performing better? Can we test it out.” Visually, it’s the same spot minus the super texts, super titles,” or, “This one’s on a red background and this one’s on a blue background.”
David Mancao (48:09):
You can test those. If the client has the budget to do that as willing to do that, put that in your skill for testing and have a conversation, then I think that’s… Part of it to make them feel good about it. This project that we just did with Kozy Shack, we shot in the photo studio like three different like concepts. We tested those three different concepts. We found out which one resonated the best within the audience. And that’s what brought us to the production that we just wrapped on in December. It’s, how do you make the creative thing more objective, right?
Tanya Musgrave (48:41):
Yes. Yes. To people who only like…
David Mancao (48:45):
Yes, exactly.
Tanya Musgrave (48:46):
Yeah.
David Mancao (48:47):
To people who can only understand numbers and metrics, how can you give them metrics to support your creative works or will work? Or does a thing to work for them. That’s huge and that’s so important.
Tanya Musgrave (49:03):
What question should I have asked you?
David Mancao (49:05):
Here’s a fun thing that I’m seeing the trend of. I think some of these commercial companies, these advertising agencies, are wanting to have more of these filmmakers, these creatives in-house.
Tanya Musgrave (49:17):
Really?
David Mancao (49:17):
Because like-
Tanya Musgrave (49:17):
Really?
David Mancao (49:19):
So VaynerMedia, we ended up… This is before my time. There’s VaynerMedia and they saw the need of production, and eventually, they created VaynerProductions to serve the production needs for VaynerMedia. Now this is a big production arm of the VaynerX company. I have friends that have worked with another agency in town called Humana. At first, when they started, they were working with a production company to make stuff, and they started making their own stuff, and bringing the production in-house.
David Mancao (49:50):
I mean, that’s what we’re still doing at Sasha Group. Even as part of this Vayner company, we’re making this Sasha Studios and we’re bringing this production arm in-house to be a arm of VaynerProductions, that’s serving the big Fortune 500s, what can we do for the small, nimble types of productions? That’s what we’re developing and figuring out in-house. I think that’s interesting. Even though stuff is happening in-house, we’re still utilizing freelancers. It might be hard pressed someone to be like, “Hey, we need an in-house DP at an agency. We need an in-house director.”
Tanya Musgrave (50:30):
Yeah. Yeah.
David Mancao (50:31):
But I think I’m seeing more and more editors like me in-house at places.
Tanya Musgrave (50:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David Mancao (50:39):
Because people are needing to post stuff all the time.
Tanya Musgrave (50:43):
How do people find you or follow your work? This is your shameless plug up.
David Mancao (50:46):
Connect with me on LinkedIn, David Mancao, M-A-N-C-A-O. Connect me with me there. Send a message. Utilize LinkedIn. I think that’s a really powerful social media tool that is under-utilized, especially in the creative community. I think the creative community, we assume that LinkedIn is just for businessy people. There’s a lot of businessy industry talk, but remember the businessy people are the ones that are having… They have the money conversations. They might be potential clients. They might be potential employers.
Tanya Musgrave (51:20):
Well, David, thank you so, so much for all of your insight, pulling back the curtain on commercial filmmaking, because I mean, I certainly didn’t know like 90% of the stuff that you said. So it was awesome.
David Mancao (51:34):
Yeah. If this helps somebody figure out what their careers look like, then I’m totally for that.
Tanya Musgrave (51:39):
If you enjoyed this interview, follow us right here and on Instagram. Ask us questions and check out more episodes at thepracticalfilmmaker.com. Be well and God bless. We’ll see you next time on The Practical Filmmaker.