If you have a passion for designing and like to manage large projects, becoming a production designer might be for you.
This week Cece Destefano, Production Designer for Alias, Empire, and They/Them, shares how she got started in the industry. In this episode, she talks about how to get your big break, her favorite gear, and how to get started.
Watch to learn how to become a production designer for TV and feature films.
Key points:
1:26 – How she got started
Skip to: 6:03 How to get your big break11:08 – Big break
19:11 – Set structure for the production designer, set decorating, and art department
23:15 – Favorite set to build for Alias 11:08 – Big break
19:11 – Set structure for the production designer, set decorating, and art department
23:15 – Favorite set to build for Alias
32:23 – Favorite gear
38:17 – Pay rate
40:39 – Something going wrong
47:52 – How to get into the industry
Links
IMDB
Website
Artemis Pro
Spectro
Bosch Laser Measure
Sun Seeker
Scriptation
Transcript
Cece DeStefano (00:00):
Production designers are protected because in our agreements, this would be union, but I would say this in also indies, is that you always are equal with the DP.
Tanya Musgrave (00:09):
Interesting.
Cece DeStefano (00:09):
So you would get what the DP gets.
Tanya Musgrave (00:12):
Interesting.
Cece DeStefano (00:13):
Now a lot of times, especially in indies I would say, the production designer, they are seen as less important, but they’re not, and I think it’s important to note, getting a union gig as a production designer, it’s already embedded in our agreements with the unions that I get what the DP gets.
Tanya Musgrave (00:33):
Welcome to The Practical Filmmaker, an educational podcast brought to you by the Filmmaker Institute and Sunscreen Film Festival, where industry professionals talk nuts and bolts and the steps they took to find their success today.
(00:44):
On today’s show, we talk with production designer Cece DeStefano as she breaks down the art department, her experiences on works like Almost Famous and Alias, and why production designers are in the same pay bracket as DPs. Find the full transcripts and more at thepracticalfilmmaker.com.
(00:59):
I’m your host, Tanya Musgrave, and today we’re excited to talk to primetime Emmy award-winning production designer Cece DeStefano, whose work can be seen on Peacock’s They/Them, Hulu’s Love Victor, as well as a long line of past hit shows such as Messiah, Empire, Chuck, and a personal nostalgic favorite, Alias. Welcome to the show.
Cece DeStefano (01:18):
Thank you for having me.
Tanya Musgrave (01:19):
I’m very excited, I was telling you earlier we don’t have very many production designers on here, so let’s start with how you got to where you are now.
Cece DeStefano (01:29):
I’ve always been creative, and it basically starts when I was a child, and I feel like I’ve always found the arts as a way of expressing myself, but also to give myself to the world, in a way, to find a place where I feel like I’m contributing. It was something that really, I think, defined me. So when I was in high school I literally was trying to figure out what to do, and in the arts field I was watching Dracula, Francis Ford Coppola, which is probably, I know it sounds so dated, but it actually is great, and the sets and the costumes are phenomenal, not to mention the love story, which of course touches on my heartstrings. I saw production designer, I saw art director, art department people, and I was like, that’s got to be the sets and the costume design, something about the visuals, I want to do that.
(02:24):
So I decided to go to film school. And I stayed in Chicago, Columbia College, Chicago was a prime place for me to meet people in the industry, for me to get in the door, for me to get my first job, and even after that I still kept alumni connections so when I moved out to LA I was able to get in touch with people that way as well. I was able to get in the industry because of where I went to school. And so that’s one of the things, I know I’m jumping here-
Tanya Musgrave (02:50):
No, you’re good.
Cece DeStefano (02:50):
But that’s one of the things I would say for anybody who’s trying to get into film or television, it is really helpful to go to a school where there is alumni to help you then get your first gig, and I would just say, I know that financially you don’t have to go to a real expensive school, but find a place where you know, because that’s really what you need today, and the generation that’s coming up, is to have that alumni to open the door for you.
Tanya Musgrave (03:16):
Yeah.
Cece DeStefano (03:16):
So going back to Columbia College, I started taking film classes and would just let people know, “I want to be a production designer,” so I was able to get in on the ground with the people who are making films at that time. I also studied set design, I studied theater, I went into theater programs. So Columbia, I don’t know if you know Columbia College, it’s an art school, so you can pretty much make your major, I ended up, you can get a BA or a BFA, as long as you do all the classes that you have to take to get those degrees. So I did set design for theater, I did interior design, I did art, I started in art, you had to work your way up, and then I also did film. So I did these three simultaneously to build basically my education so that I could come out and get into the production design or art direction world.
(04:06):
So that’s basically my story. My set design teacher, Gary Bah, who is one of my mentors, was actually an art director in television in Chicago, and film. Because in Chicago the film community was pretty small, there was one crew, basically, maybe one and a half crews. So he was art directing, and eventually, as my education moved forward, I was taking classes with him, and I had really, he was one of my men mentors, an opportunity to presented itself, and I was able to go and work as an intern on a TV show called The Untouchables, which wow was in ’92 through ’94, and I believe it was on WGN at the time. Not a lot of people had heard of it, and the Italian American community came out, basically, and I am Italian, by the way, Italian American, came out and said that it was not putting Italians in a good light, so there was a lot of politics around it, so it ended up getting canceled.
Tanya Musgrave (05:03):
Interesting.
Cece DeStefano (05:03):
But that being said, I was able to get in as an intern, and throughout this I’m still in school, I’m still meeting filmmakers, and so I started doing everybody’s senior thesis as the designer, or art director at the time, I think we were calling it. So I was decorating the sets and doing the props and doing the signage, and everything. So basically I was working as a designer, not getting paid of course, and using my parents’ furniture. So I was definitely borrowing and doing what I could and making signs, and doing all this stuff. So I did a lot of those, I did probably a good 10 of them as student thesises or independent films. Mind you, I’m still coming in as a PA and a intern. So I started my career in about 1992 in Chicago as an intern on The Untouchables.
Tanya Musgrave (05:55):
Okay, so we actually do have a listener question, and he was wondering if you ever felt like you had an aha moment or that big break?
Cece DeStefano (06:05):
So the first one was when my teacher, before I got the internship, I remember being in class and talking with my teacher, who is the one who actually got the internship, and it was in the art department, but it was specifically for set deck. So he was an art director. Production design tiers down into the different, I’m overseeing all these departments, but you have set decorating and you have the art department, the art director is in charge of the art department, construction and paint, sculpting, plaster, all of those, and then set is really about dressing the set. So he got me an internship to be really more with set deck.
(06:47):
And while I was in class I remember, he could just tell that, I don’t like to use the word hard, but I was a really hard worker, I had a really strong work ethic, came from the Midwest, my mom was a single mom, I just always prided myself and wanted to get ahead. I had been working retail jobs since I was 15 when you could get a work permit, I just wanted my own money, I wanted to be able to do things that brought me fulfillment and brought me joy, and working was one of those things, because you can make money, and then you can do things you wanted to do. So I always prided myself on that, and I think my mom really instilled that in us, and knew that I always believed in myself and knew that I could do anything, regardless of money, it was like, just follow your dreams and you’re going to be happy.
(07:34):
So because of that, and I feel like that’s a really important thing, because I don’t know, I feel like now there’s this idea that you don’t have to work hard. And I’m not saying you have to work hard, I’m saying you have to work smart, you have to be a go-getter, people have to see that you are willing to do what it takes to get the job done. I’m not saying getting taken advantage of, or being in an abusive situation at work, I’m just saying… I remember somebody saying that even if you were a street sweeper, you have to be the most dedicated street sweeper there is, and when people see that, they’re going to want to work with you. They’re going to see that you’re actually somebody who’s going to work and dedicate themselves, and actually work smartly and want to do the job, and that’s really, really important.
Tanya Musgrave (08:25):
Absolutely.
Cece DeStefano (08:26):
So I just want to stress that. So because my teacher saw that in me, he saw that I was making the extra effort, I wasn’t just punching a time clock at school and just trying to get by. If I had a question, I had a question, I was like, “Oh, how do I do this detail?” And, “What about this design?” And I was looking for feedback, and I was collaborating, he could already tell that. So he gave me this opportunity and he’s like, “Well, do you want to come and intern?” And I was like, “For free? Absolutely.” I didn’t care, I was waitressing on the weekends, I was doing whatever, I lived at home, I was doing whatever it took to get in the door, and I was able.
(09:06):
So that was kind of an aha moment of where it’s like, okay, if I work hard, or if I work smart, I’ll say, people are going to take notice that I’m a go-getter. It’s not really about people pleasing, it’s more about doing the best you can at whatever you’re given the task to do. Even if it’s researching where to find live chickens, whatever it is. There’s no, oh no, it doesn’t exist. No, it actually does, and if you put the energy and effort into it, you’ll find that it’s amazing what you’ll find, especially now. This was time back in the day when we were going through phone books.
Tanya Musgrave (09:45):
Yeah, this is before the internet, before Google.
Cece DeStefano (09:47):
Yeah, there was no internet, you had a email, but that was it. So nowadays the world’s your oyster with Google and with the internet, and you can pretty much find anything anywhere in the world. So it’s really, I feel like, there’s a huge advantage just where we are today in history that you can find.
(10:09):
So I would say that was, I don’t know if it was my aha moment, but it was that moment of I know if I’m a go-getter and I’m doing the best I can in every moment, I’m going to be recognized and people are going to want to work with me. And to be honest, that is truly why I got to where I’m at today, hands down. Because if you put the design aside, forget about the design of it, people want to work with people they want to spend time with. If you’re talented you just have that much more of a open possibilities, endless possibilities.
Tanya Musgrave (10:46):
Yeah.
Cece DeStefano (10:48):
But the idea of working, doing the best you can in every moment, and being the best person, human, that you can be, to me those are two things that really draw people to wanting to hire you.
Tanya Musgrave (11:02):
Had mentioned another big break that you felt-
Cece DeStefano (11:05):
Yes.
Tanya Musgrave (11:05):
Yeah.
Cece DeStefano (11:06):
Yeah, okay. So this is the biggest break of my career. I’m working in Chicago with people, and you’re always, again, working with the same crews. I’m getting hired because people are recommending me, “She did a great job here, you should hire her, she’s going to do really well, she’s going to be successful, you need to bring her on.” Gary Bah was one of my, I had always been working with him, but then a decorator had hired me and I worked with her a lot. And again, you’re just meeting more people and you’re moving up, my circle of people who I’m meeting is getting bigger and bigger, so that’s giving me more opportunity. So the decorator I was working with had an opportunity, so I worked in Chicago for five or six years, the decorator gave me an opportunity to come to LA. I never wanted to come to LA, that was not in my, I was like, I’m more New York than LA.
Tanya Musgrave (11:56):
I don’t feel like anybody ever does.
Cece DeStefano (11:58):
Totally.
Tanya Musgrave (12:00):
Well actually, some do, some do, but-
Cece DeStefano (12:01):
Some I love it, yeah. I never wanted to, but I went because in Chicago I was only getting one job a year and then I would have to figure out, what am I doing? I’m working four months, six months out of the year and I couldn’t support myself, starting out especially.
(12:16):
So I came to LA, I took a job, and I basically never left. I came in ’98, I started working in features. I mean, I worked in features in Chicago, but I was working in features in Los Angeles, meeting groups of people that are, again, going to continue to hire me and I’m going to get word of mouth and everything. So I’m working there for only a year, basically, but I had done a lot of jobs in that year, going from show to show to show to show.
(12:49):
So back in the day you would work in art departments in studios, and there might be three or four shows of art departments in these art department rooms on a floor, and oh, there’s Stuart Little is shooting over, their art departments here, and we were on Lost Souls, and we were over here, and then there’s another art department. So you were around a lot of people. I had met Clay Griffith, who is a production designer, and a dear friend, and he was designing Stuart Little at the, oh no, he was decorating Stuart Little at the time. And I had met him just because we had fellow art department people we knew, and he ended up hiring me as an art department coordinator. So I’m working still in the administrative aspects, so I’m been working almost six years, which doesn’t happen now, now people are moving up much quicker. So he hires me on Almost Famous.
(13:41):
So I’m our department coordinating on Almost Famous, The movie goes, we get shut down, we’re going for almost a year, I was on it for probably a year, and I was Clay’s right hand person, meaning anything he needed, researching, I’m not art directing or anything, I’m not drawing or anything, but I’m doing the administrative and I’m supporting him. And I’m talking to the art directors and him, and they know I want to be an art director, they know I want to move up and get in the union. If you’re going to be in our department, pretty much anything, you want to get into the union, either it’s the New York Unions or the LA Unions. And that’s the goal for people, and I would say that would be the goal for the people listening to this podcast as well, is they’re the ones, that’s where the industry, that’s the bread and butter of the industry, we’re the ones supporting filmmaking, basically, and the unions protect us, we’re protected, we get health insurance, and all that stuff, so that’s the key.
(14:44):
So I want to get in the Art Director’s Guild, so on that show I’m excelling above and beyond the art department coordinator, and I get an opportunity to set design for another production designer that I’ve worked with, who I worked with in Chicago, and he wants me to come and set design this, and he’s a big production set designer, he did Roots, he’s done a ton of stuff. He’s seeing younger people in the industry coming up, he was an older gentleman at the time, and he’s seeing all these young people come up, and he sees how hard I work, and he sees that I’m a go-getter, and that he loves being around me, and he’s like, I want to give her shot. So I tell my team, I said, “I’m going to go do this.” And they’re like, “You don’t want to, you want to art direct, why are you going to go set design?” I’m like, “Well, that’s a good way of moving up.” And he’s like, “No, we’ll get you in the union, you’re going to stay here,” and I was like, “What?”
(15:37):
So they write a letter, and there’s this thing in the Art Director’s Guild where if you work 600 hours and you’ve been sponsored, 600 hours is not that much, but that was what it… I think it was 600 hours, no, maybe it was more than that, or 6,000, maybe it was 6,000. It doesn’t matter, it was not that long of a time, it was like five years of work, or something, and basically I had already had that. And so they were able to grandfather me in, there was this clause in our union where if somebody sponsors you, so I had people, big people, Cameron Crowe, Clay Griffith, Clayton Hartley, Jenny Randolph at the time, those were the main people in the art department, and then I had the producers, Ian Bryce, who’s a huge line producer, he’s probably an executive producer at the time. Cameron Crowe, who’s a huge director. I had these people sign this letter and then give it to, and so I got in the union.
Tanya Musgrave (16:32):
Wow.
Cece DeStefano (16:33):
That was the biggest break of my life because it changed the course of everything. And from that job, again, because of people I had worked with, and word of mouth, and people who knew people, I got the opportunity to work with Scott Chambliss on Alias.
Tanya Musgrave (16:52):
Oh my word.
Cece DeStefano (16:52):
And that got me in the door. I had done an HBO feature as an art director with that same production designer who wanted to hire me as a set designer, Charles Bennett, and then from there I was able to get into Alias as an art director, so that was my really aha moment.
Tanya Musgrave (17:05):
My gosh, I might’ve gotten chills when you said you got Alias.
Cece DeStefano (17:13):
It’s actually, it’s one of the best experiences and films I’ve ever worked on, even as an art department coordinator.
Tanya Musgrave (17:20):
So, all right, Let’s talk about this Alias, because I have you now, I would love to hear about your favorite set that you put together for that show.
Cece DeStefano (17:32):
I have to start by saying that I was an art director since the pilot, and I worked as an art director through halfway through season four, And then I took over, only because Scott Chambliss left to do Mission Possible JJ Abrams, Mission Impossible 3. So I took over the show at the end of season four and then season five, and then the series ended.
(17:57):
I do want to give a little props to Scott Chambliss because he pretty much gave me the opportunity. I mean, yes, I got in the union, but he gave me the opportunity to take over when he left, and he was an amazing designer. If you are interested in production design you need to seek him out, because he really taught me everything I know, I have to give it to him, and I don’t even know that I’m half as good as he is. He is amazing. He comes from theater, he’s got this creative brain, he sees things and textures and light, and he’s taught me so much in my career, and I really want to put a shout to him.
(18:35):
So I assume you’re asking me as a production designer, or are you asking as an art director? Because I did win the Emmy as an art director, so I didn’t win it as a production designer, I just want to be clear with that.
Tanya Musgrave (18:45):
Actually, this might be a really great opportunity to differentiate for the listeners, because you had mentioned before these tiers of where people are, for instance, where one job ends and your role begins, art director over all of it, or production designer, set decorator, all of that stuff. So just a very bullet pointed list of where roles are.
Cece DeStefano (19:12):
Okay. So basically as the designer, I’m basically in charge of the look of the film, I’m responsible for the look of film in front of the camera, or what you’re seeing through the lens, not the camera, not the filters, or any of that stuff, not the visuals. So everything in front of, so it’s basically the production designer, and I’m working very closely with the director, the producers, the writers, the DP, the costume designer even, prop master, and I’m overseeing the whole art department. So the art department consists of the set decorating team, they’re in charge of obviously the furniture and decorating to my specs and my inspirations the furniture for the film or television show.
(19:55):
And then you have the art department, which even though the decorator falls there she, he or she, excuse me, is responsible for their department, they have the set dressers, so that’s a big department on its own. And then you have the art department, and you have the art director, who’s right below me, or supervising art directors, assistant art directors, and then graphic designers, set designers, illustrators. Story board artists to an extent, but really that falls under, they work directly with the director, generally. You might hire somebody, but they pretty much take their orders from the director, because they’re doing the visuals for the director, meaning drawing out the frames, as you know.And then you have art department coordinators, and you have art department PAs.
(20:41):
And so you’re overseeing all them, within that framework then is construction. So construction falls under the art department, so they answer to the art director, and me, of course, I’m overseeing everybody, I’m everybody’s boss, but then you have construction, the painters, the plasterers, all that stuff. And then that’s my tier, but I oversee props, any designs when it comes to props, usually on a television show, it depends on if it’s a big design show, you’re creating worlds, then you’re overseeing props for sure, and you’re overseeing builds of props, and the design of them, and whatnot. And then you have special effects, visual effects, locations, you’re not necessarily their boss-
Tanya Musgrave (21:25):
You’re overseeing that too? Oh, okay.
Cece DeStefano (21:27):
Yeah, you’re not necessarily their boss, but you kind of are. So I know that this has to explode here, right?
Tanya Musgrave (21:33):
Mm-hmm, yeah, like a giant red ball?
Cece DeStefano (21:36):
Like a giant red ball, exactly. I’m telling them what we need, and then the art director is the one who’s going to basically talk to them about how it’s going to be built, and the construction coordinator, they’re going to talk about how to build it and how to make sure that they give them, I’m going to oversee the visuals, but they’re going to talk about the nuts and bolts about, how do we make this happen? And sometimes I get involved in it, depending on something like Alias, I’m way more involved because it’s a smaller show. If it’s a big feature, you have too much going on, you’re giving those tasks to the people, the art directors.
(22:08):
But visual effects as well, I have to have a good relationship with visual effects because I’m designing something that they’re then building onto, so I have to tell them what does the rest of the set look like? I’m giving them references for what the sets look like. If you’re doing a big alien show, you’re designing all that, and you’re not leaving that up to the other departments, you’re still in charge of that look.
(22:29):
And then costume design, we just work hand in hand to make sure that if I have a design sense of, oh, we have a color controller, whatever it is, then you’re involving them. I always am involving them with, these are my colors of my sets, this is what the sets look like, and they’re coming up with their characters of, okay, so we’re working hand in hand, so I’m always working with the costume designer as well. So I’m overseeing pretty much everything behind the scenes, whereas the DP is overseeing everything on set, it’s their domain, set is their domain, whereas behind the scenes is my domain.
Tanya Musgrave (23:09):
So from that perspective, what was your favorite one to put together and why? And I would say either favorite and/or challenging.
Cece DeStefano (23:19):
So all of the sets for Alias were, when I was art directing, were challenging, all the permanent sets, they were all challenging, every season had its own challenges, and finding and sourcing materials, and trying to find, how are we going to give this look, and how can we afford it? Because of course in television you don’t have a lot of money, you’re trying to come up with using inexpensive materials to get the look that you want. I don’t have a particular, I guess, favorite set, I feel like they all came with their own challenges, and we definitely had an amazing construction department to help us carry out the vision of these different sets. I remember we did a lot of locations, and we pretended we were all over the world.
Tanya Musgrave (24:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Cece DeStefano (24:15):
We were not. And there was this one set that we did on the top of, I think we were supposed to be in Russia, and we were at the Petersen Automotive Museum, which is in Los Angeles, and we were shooting up on the rooftop. So we created these blue, translucent plexi-arches. I don’t know if you remember, they were squares, but they were almost half frowns that you had to walk through, and we created these aisles so that it felt like you were walking through basically this blue tunnel in a way.
Tanya Musgrave (24:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Cece DeStefano (24:56):
And there was some fight that ensued up there, but those things were so, even to this day I can’t get a construction team to replicate them. They were pretty seamless, I mean, you did see a seam behind them, they glowed blue. But to figure out how to make them so that we had as little connection as possible, was a big feat, and we actually did it. I mean, it was something that you really, as a designer, are only as good as your crew.
(25:27):
Even if you’re telling somebody how to do it, people are always comfortable with what they know. It’s super easy to build a flat, a wall, everyone knows how to build a wall, and they could build walls all day long because it’s quick and they know how to do it in construction. But when you have to do something that’s out of the ordinary, that’s not within their typical material preferences, it’s hard for them and it takes longer, and it takes more money, because you’re now putting more manpower into something that you don’t know if it’s going to succeed, or they don’t know if it’s going to succeed, and they have to try it out, and everything.
(26:00):
So to get a construction team and a paint department that is willing to go the extra mile, we really pushed our teams on Alias, for sure, even with the fake marble and the fake metal that was really wood, and the materials we used, the Coroplast instead of plexi because it was cheaper, and all these things, I think that’s what Alias, because of the stories that were-
Tanya Musgrave (26:27):
The variety.
Cece DeStefano (26:28):
The variety, we were able to really play with that. I mean, not a lot of shows, and I do feel like Alias was one of the first TV shows at the time that took people into another world. And even if it was on a budget, which it was, you felt like you were somewhere else, it was something you did not see on TV at that time. It was, in my feeling, groundbreaking. And it was after Alias that you started to see more shows not be as in this box of, the studio system would be like, “Oh, that’s not comfortable, people don’t want to be in something so cold and austere,” and it’s like, “No, actually people want that variety,” and I think that that’s what Alias brought, for sure.
Tanya Musgrave (27:13):
Yeah, it was, like NYPD Blue, it was just very, very-
Cece DeStefano (27:16):
Specific.
Tanya Musgrave (27:17):
Yeah, one very, very generic setting, kind of thing. Okay, so I got to ask, were you overseeing all the props too for that, specifically all of Marshall’s gadgets that he came up with?
Cece DeStefano (27:34):
No, that’s the mind of JJ Abrams right there, pretty much.
Tanya Musgrave (27:38):
Okay, okay, okay.
Cece DeStefano (27:40):
And our master Chris had a bunch of places that he would get his props made, ISS being one of them. I mean, there was designers at ISS that busted out the clock, all these different things that they did, they really were spectacular. And Chris worked very closely with Scott Chambliss, at the time I took over Chris was already in, I mean he pretty much, there was always one big prop an episode, and he had to get that prop early on, so he had a week to design it, create it, build it, make it ready for the show. So he had a team of people where they would make these props, he wasn’t making them personally, so yes, he was definitely very involved in that.
(28:30):
So I, unless a prop had to come together, so we would call that an action prop. That’s a different prop, that’s a proper where special effects, art department, props have to come together, because something happens with the prop, it’s a big, something explodes, so either you have to touch it, you have to make it happen, whatever has to happen, and then I have to integrate it into the set. We definitely had to collaborate on those props for sure, but generally, if it was a hand prop, it was one of Marshall’s gadgets, Chris was doing all of those.
Tanya Musgrave (29:05):
Okay, what are the first five resources that you reach for.
Cece DeStefano (29:09):
Research, research, research is your biggest thing. So you might have a visual in your head, but now you have to either sketch that out, you have to do an illustration for your team, even just to convey it to the director and the producer, you have to come up with whatever it is that you want to communicate. So for me, research is the biggest thing. Tier sheets, I go through, I have a library of, I can’t even tell you, bookshelves of books, of reference books. So I go to those, and I go to inspiration. I don’t necessarily go to, exactly what you’re saying, let me go to the seventies books, I go to photography, I look at photographs, and photographers who inspire me with light and texture. I’m looking for anything that brings me my vision to come out.
(29:56):
So I read a script, I see something, I’m going to go to research, which is going to be my first and foremost, I’ll look at reference books, I’ll look at research book, I’ll look at photography, photographers. I might even research who were the photographers in 1970 that was doing black and white photography? I just look for things that bring me inspiration. And then I put everything out there, and I have something in my head, but the thing that I do is I look at everything that I have and then I step away and I let it germinate. I operate out of feeling. So my feelings, I have to feel good about something. So if it feels right to me, I may not be able to have the words for it, but I definitely operate from that place, from a hard space.
(30:40):
And it could be even that hard space, that feeling could be something that, even what you said, maybe there’s something that’s super dirty and cringey and there’s a lot of age and there’s character, and maybe this room has peeling paint, whatever that visual, it’s not always pretty, but it always has beauty. For me, I operate through beauty, and all of my sets have that, to me, a beautiful element to it, so that when you visually see it, it’s going to touch you somewhere, in the story it’s going to bring you into the story more, it’s going to bring you into the writer’s vision of what he or she put on paper. And then I’m going to bring in my decorator.
Tanya Musgrave (31:21):
Okay.
Cece DeStefano (31:22):
My decorator’s going to be my second person.
Tanya Musgrave (31:24):
You’ve got research, you got your decorator.
Cece DeStefano (31:25):
My decorator.
Tanya Musgrave (31:26):
Mm-hmm.
Cece DeStefano (31:26):
And I’m seeing visuals, so those two are the first things, so those are the first things that I’ll do, so I start a collaboration with my people, I start a collaboration with my decorator, I might start a collaboration with the set designer, or an illustrator to convey my feelings. I’ll put together maybe a InDesign presentation of things that I love, or maybe I have it on a wall, it depends on what the room is and what the scale of it is. So I’ll get the visuals and then just immerse myself in them so I’m seeing them all the time, to then let it evolve further.
(32:04):
So I feel like those are my two things that are my go-tos no matter what. Some people go to museums, some people will take a walk on the beach, whatever, but those are my two things that are my standbys first and foremost.
Tanya Musgrave (32:19):
What is your favorite old reliable?
Cece DeStefano (32:23):
I use this thing called a Bosch. You put it on the wall and you can measure the room in five minutes, really quickly.
Tanya Musgrave (32:30):
Oh dang.
Cece DeStefano (32:30):
So it’s something you must have, I use that. I’m a little bit more old school, I do use Illustrator and Photoshop, but I hand draw. I never took that leap to learn SketchUp, or any of those 3D tools, which I think are really important, but those are not mine, I’m very tactile.
(32:47):
So the next thing would be my digital color match app, and mine’s called Specto, wait let me verify, Specto. And it’s this little tool, and you put it up against the wall, or anywhere you need a color match, the wood, wood tone, fabric, whatever, and you push a button and it goes to an app on your phone and it tells you exactly, it could give you Pantone colors, it can give you Benjamin Moore colors, Behr color, all these different color, so you download it and upgrade it as you need them. I personally use it for Benjamin Moore, because that’s my color, Pantone and Benjamin Moore, because Pantone we use for, you have to do a lot of Pantone color matches, but Pantone I use a lot for graphics, and Benjamin Moore is for paint wall color.
(33:32):
Invest in Artemis Pro.
Tanya Musgrave (33:35):
I’ve heard of this.
Cece DeStefano (33:36):
Okay, so when you go on location and you’re scouting you can see, oh, this is my frame, this is my frame, this is my frame. Now normally the DP isn’t going to say, like his widest lens he might say, “I’ll never go below a 20,” so I’ll put my 20 on it and then I’ll put my 80, or whatever, 120, whatever it is his lenses are, I’ll put his package of lenses, so I know exactly what he’s going to see. And that’s important because you don’t want to dress something or build something that you’re never going to see on camera, it’s a waste of money, put your money where you’re going to see it.
Tanya Musgrave (34:09):
Yep.
Cece DeStefano (34:10):
And then the other thing, I didn’t add this in there, but Sun Seeker is a really great app too, it tells you where the sun is.
Tanya Musgrave (34:16):
Yep, yeah, where’s going to be.
Cece DeStefano (34:18):
That’s super important for location scouting, if you’re going to shoot, “Oh, we’re here, where’s the sun going to be at 10:00?” “Oh, the sun’s perfect.” “No, we need it to be over here, I need them back lit,” you need to know where the sun’s going to be. So you may not be scouting with the DP, so you need to know where is that sun so that you know that you’re going to get the best light coming on your set, or whatever it is you’re doing.
Tanya Musgrave (34:42):
Yeah.
Cece DeStefano (34:42):
The next and more important one, I would say personally, is Scriptation. Scriptation is a digital app on your iPad, your computer, your phone even, that you put a script in, and you write notes on it, you annotate it, and it literally, when the script changes, or pages change, it takes those notes, and everything in the script, and puts it into the new script.
Tanya Musgrave (35:09):
Wow.
Cece DeStefano (35:10):
Back in the day you used to write on your script.
Tanya Musgrave (35:12):
Yeah, yeah, highlight.
Cece DeStefano (35:14):
And then you have to take all those freaking notes and redo them on the new script, and you’d be so upset when they did a full pink because you’re like, oh my God, I got to change all these pages. It was the worst. So now you have an app that actually does it for you, and all your pictures and everything, your notes, everything that you annotate, all your highlights, go to the next script, and then they tell you what was omitted, so then you don’t have to go through and say, “What was omitted? Oh, I have a full pink, I got to go back through the whole thing to figure out what was omitted, I know I have stars,” but you have to go through everything. It’s really a game changer, it’s called Scriptation.
Tanya Musgrave (35:50):
Yeah, okay, all right. I was curious on how accurate it is when it changes over, because there have been some things, like for instance, StudioBinder might do something like this, and this is something for the indie world, StudioBinder is used a little bit more than Movie Magic, and stuff like that, when they do script breakdown they have this automatic breakdown, and you can go in there, and I remember it being a thing where there would be an update, everything would go haywire. And so you’re just like, okay, what is a quirk of one of these things? I mean, is that something that you have to deal with at all or is it just like nah, actually you’re getting what you pay for, and this is fantastic.
Cece DeStefano (36:30):
It’s not that type of app where, like Movie Magic I think, and I don’t have it, so I don’t know, but I believe, because you can do schedules, you break down everything, right?
Tanya Musgrave (36:43):
Yeah.
Cece DeStefano (36:43):
So it’s for ADs.
Tanya Musgrave (36:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Cece DeStefano (36:44):
So this is mainly, it takes a document, literally click and drag it into your new script. I mean, you don’t really do that, but it takes all of the notes and the photos that are in there and it puts it onto that other script. It literally will say, oh, scene six was omitted, so then those notes went away, so you lose all that stuff.
Tanya Musgrave (37:05):
Gotcha, gotcha.
Cece DeStefano (37:05):
But it isn’t a breakdown of, these are the props, these are the art department, I don’t believe it does that, and I don’t use it for that. It’s mainly for, as a designer, it’s more, the art directors still need to do the work, the graphic designers, where is there a graphic, and all that, we have set dressing. Because in those programs, they don’t necessarily say, they tell you what’s in the script, they say, “Oh, set deck has to have a chair,” or a table, or whatever, they don’t get into the specifics of what’s the bigger aspect of the room because a lot of times, on the shooting schedule, it only says the most important thing, but there’s a million things in that room that I’ve talked to the director about that need to be in there that are not on the shooting schedule.
(37:53):
So we have to still do our own list, for sure, this is really just about if you have highlights of things in a script, and your notes and your photos or whatever, this transfer them to the other updated script, that’s how it works. And with updates it doesn’t go haywire, it pretty much keeps all the information is still there, so I’ve never experienced anything with that.
Tanya Musgrave (38:17):
Okay, so what could somebody who’s entering into this field expect for pay? Is it a project rate, a day rate, that kind of a thing? A lot of our listeners, they’re coming in from the indie side, so any suggestions for them?
Cece DeStefano (38:34):
I don’t know that I can tell what their rates would be, designers specifically, but what I would say is that as a designer, and even negotiating deals, production designers are protected because in our agreements, this would be union, but I would say this in also indies, is that you always are equal with the DP.
Tanya Musgrave (38:55):
Interesting.
Cece DeStefano (38:55):
So you would get what the DP gets.
Tanya Musgrave (38:59):
Interesting.
Cece DeStefano (38:59):
Now a lot of times, especially in indies, I would say, the production designer, they are seen as less important, but they’re not, and I think it’s important to know, getting a union gig as a production designer, it’s already embedded in our agreements with the unions that I get what the DP gets. And now it wouldn’t be rate per se, but it would be all the perks. You are equal with the DP, even though they feel like sometimes the DP is more important because they have the camera, and the sets, anybody can do, but it’s actually not true, you would actually need a production design, you need somebody who’s sole focused is on that position, whether it’s decorating, props, signage, all that stuff.
(39:42):
Most of my stuff I did when I was getting into the industry early, early on was student films, so we weren’t really getting paid. I was able to reimburse if I had to buy something, or tools, or that sort of stuff, or if we need a specific set that I had to rent a bed or a table and chair, something that was really specific that I couldn’t beg, borrow, and steal, even those jobs I wasn’t getting paid, whereas I’m sure the DP might have been. I just think it’s good to know that you really are par with the DP.
Tanya Musgrave (40:14):
Yeah, that’s actually a refreshing to hear, I have never heard that before, but it is refreshing to hear because there are so many roles that take a backseat. One of my favorite questions to ask is a story of when something went wrong, and what you did about it.
Cece DeStefano (40:33):
Who wants to tell those stories?
Tanya Musgrave (40:35):
They’re the most fun.
Cece DeStefano (40:37):
So I did a TV show called Tyrant, it was a Fox 21 production, it was on FX, and it was about a fictitious Middle Eastern country that was loosely based off of Syria where there was a dictator who was not good to his people. So we filmed in Israel the first season, and they didn’t have the infrastructure that we needed. They do a ton of television for Israeli TV, but they didn’t have the infrastructure, so we had to build an entire studio, like studio, like buildings, sets in the buildings. And we found-
Tanya Musgrave (41:14):
Like the whole lot?
Cece DeStefano (41:16):
The whole lot, basically. They’re like temporary construction, so we put in the floor, and we’re talking to, the construction coordinators in Israel, the Israelis. Because it’s temporary, they normally do these temporarily, they don’t usually keep them up for longer than a certain amount of time, three months, or whatever these structures. So the structure is really loud, it hears all the rain, because it’s a tin roof, it’s in-
Tanya Musgrave (41:42):
Oh, awesome.
Cece DeStefano (41:44):
I know, there’s planes that go overhead. I mean, it was a disaster. I mean, it wasn’t a disaster, it was fine when there wasn’t rain or… So the worst thing that happens during this is, and this is the thing that I’m getting to, is the floor buckles. So you have all these wood slats, and the floors starts to buckle because of the water, and the rains. It’s not waterproof, it’s not rain proof, the floor is buckling, and it’s like the worst things. So every day, now mind you, here’s our floor, so then you’re putting fake floor on top of it. So you have the floor that’s buckling, and then you’re putting fake floor on top of it.
(42:26):
So the floor is four by eight sheets of plywood, and because we don’t have the money to do inch and a half ply, which is what you should do for a stage, and they never let us do it because we don’t have the money to do it. Now on features and on bigger shows you can if you have the money. But what happens on these network shows is you don’t have the budget to do it because you’re trying to put the budget on screen, and you don’t see that, but that actually prevents the floors from bowing, but you never can afford to do it. So we do just regular plywood, and it buckles, so it’s buckling in the four bay sheet.
(43:00):
So then we put down a printed marble floor that we’ve created, we don’t do individual tile, which is what we should have done, so every opportunity that’s happening, everything that we’re doing is a learning experience for your next job. So what happens is that becomes a huge ordeal. So every morning the construction department has to go and staple down the floor where it’s buckling, so we’re spending all this money where we should have just put down the inch and a half plywood from the beginning. So anyways, that’s the worst thing where something went wrong, and you just learned for the next time.
Tanya Musgrave (43:37):
I mean, oh my gosh, would you feel like at that point you would just create a standard as in, hey, if I’m going to come on your production, I’m not going to do this, I’m not going to staple down the floor every morning, I’m going to put this in.
Cece DeStefano (43:52):
Well, you take all this knowledge that you learn from every show and you bring it to the next project. The days of the features where you have these tentpole movie, you have these tentpole movies, but you don’t have $30 to $40 million features anymore, you’re doing $10 million features, $5 million features, you might be lucky to do a $20. The world of those features, it’s almost like our society. You have these huge features, which are the one percenters, we’ll call it, and then you have these people who are just trying to get by, and they’re trying to have a good story that doesn’t cost a lot of money. So you really are always fighting to get the most out of the budget as you can, and unfortunately you can’t, you can’t have everything you want. Even on these big tentpole movie features, you’re putting so much money into all these fight sequences that sometimes the sets, you have to design the sets for the fights, as opposed to the, you know?
(44:56):
So you’re constantly fighting the battle of where do you put the money? And that’s a huge part of our job is how do you get the most design out of the money we have. Even though every department has to consider labor, man days, my construction has to consider how much do those man days cost? We’re the only department where I’m paying on my budget for the sets, for the carpenters and the painters, and everything. Everybody else has a materials budget and a labor budget, I have my budget, you see the labor of what it costs, and it’s usually pretty high. It used to be 80/20, so 80% labor, 20% materials, now it’s almost more than that, or less than that, because-
Tanya Musgrave (45:43):
Which one’s less?
Cece DeStefano (45:44):
You’re having to pay so much for materials you’re actually having less labor.
Tanya Musgrave (45:49):
Got it.
Cece DeStefano (45:49):
But the labor’s more expensive. We have to track how much a person is being paid in the construction, that’s part of the set cost all the time, whereas set dressing has, here’s your purchases and rentals for your material, the sets, the furniture, whatever, but then they have a man days column and it’s like, oh, you have 20 man days, you get all these four guys, which is pretty much how they work, you get four guys for the show, but then you have 20 additional man days over the course of your permanent step build, and you have 20 additional man days for the rest run of the show and then you can use them how you want. We have to pay for every single, the hourly rates for construction and paint and plasters go into our budgets to build a set.
Tanya Musgrave (46:37):
Goodness mercy. Wow. When you say those man days, say you have 20 man days, but you have four guys, is that literally just five days with the four of those guys? Or is it 20 days with all four of those guys?
Cece DeStefano (46:51):
So you’ll always get, for set dressing, you’ll always, and this is prop as well, you’ll always get a set of man days, meaning you have four people for the run of the show to do this job, and then you have the additional 20. So each episode you might need to pull a man day here or there, so you basically stretch it out. So you might really get six guys to do a network television show for set dressing, it might not include the lead man who oversees all the guys, or excuse me, the people. I didn’t mean to say guys. I call guys, interchangeable guys and girls.
Tanya Musgrave (47:32):
Me too, me too.
Cece DeStefano (47:33):
So my apologies. So sometimes you don’t need those extra two bodies, you might add those on to an episode where you really need more, so you might do four on that episode. The lead man can basically play with his crew the way he needs to.
Tanya Musgrave (47:51):
Got it, got it, got it, got it. All right, and the question that I love to wrap up with is what question should I have asked you?
Cece DeStefano (47:55):
How do I get in the industry? There’s two ways into the industry, and I would say you could do the indie routes. If you are somebody who really wants to be a designer, and you don’t want to start out as a PA, then you should take the indie route. If your passion and drive for filmmaking and to tell stories as a designer is beyond doing anything else, then I would go that route. And for that I would just meet as many people as you can, get on as many projects as you can, do whatever groundwork you can, when I say groundwork I just mean take every opportunity, because every single opportunity will lead you to the next opportunity. In our industry, you really are only as good as your last project. You might have met somebody on your last project, or you met somebody four projects ago and they will definitely hire you again if you have a good relationship with them, but the project you’re doing at that moment is going to be the project that’s going to take you into the next one, so always remember that. So that’s one.
(49:01):
The second way is to start in at the bottom, which is how I started. Now I think that a lot of people are doing that these days, and I think it actually is going to move you up very quickly, unless you get on that independent that goes to Sundance, that then trajects your career because now it’s got an award, and it’s award worthy, then you’re going to design the next fricking Marvel movie. But those are hard to come by, you have to get on a project, you have to then be able to read it and be like, no, this is really special, these are with really good people.
Tanya Musgrave (49:36):
Yeah, it’s a crapshoot, it always is.
Cece DeStefano (49:37):
It’s a crapshoot. It doesn’t matter how amazing it is, if it doesn’t get recognition, nobody’s going to see it. If you start out like I did at the bottom, and you start as a PA, and you excel, and you’re a go-getter, and you take no for an answer, and you keep knocking on doors, and you keep reaching out to those people, they’re going to eventually hire you.
(49:58):
There is so much content right now in the industry that you really are going to move up very quickly, and I think working at the bottom and moving your way up is a smart way because you as a designer need to know how every position operates, you need to know how to locate stuff, you need to know how to research, you need to know how to draw, you need to know how to do graphics, you need to know all of those things, and if you move your way up, you’re going to get those tools to then know what it is going to be to oversee. So to me the question is how do you get in the industry, and I feel like those are the two ways.
(50:34):
But the one thing I just want to end with, I just feel like it’s super important to be a collaborator. You are here to work with the writer who’s creating, writing the script, you’re here to work with a director who is carrying his vision of the writer on the screen, the DP, you have to be in such close connection with these people, and also the other departments, the visual effects, the special effects, all of the other departments, costumes, line producers even because of the money, you have to work close with the UPMs because of the money and the ADs because they’re scheduling your sets.
(51:11):
It is such a collaboration, I can’t even explain to you, that it’s so important when you get to a position of production designer in any film or TV that has money. It’s one thing to fight for what you really want at any stage of your career, but you really have to know how to work with people to get what you want, so that if you are communicating and you’re working with somebody like an AD and you say, “That set won’t be ready day one, I need it day eight,” they’re going to want to help you because they’re going to want to work together with you. So the collaboration is so important, and that’s the biggest thing, I would say, as a production designer.
Tanya Musgrave (51:53):
Cece, this has been such fascinating insight, and so so practical, which we really appreciate here, because I love those tangible things. How do people find you or follow your work?
Cece DeStefano (52:04):
Oh my goodness, I would just say my website, which is my name, CeceDeStefano.com, and you can reach out to me there, my email is there, my agents are there, and all my portfolio, my work is there, so yes, follow me there.
Tanya Musgrave (52:19):
We really appreciate you being on the show, thanks so much for sharing your experience and for your time.
Cece DeStefano (52:23):
Thank you.
Tanya Musgrave (52:24):
If you enjoyed this interview, follow us right here and on Instagram, ask us questions and check out more episodes at thepracticalfilmmaker.com. Until next time, be well and God bless, we’ll see you next time on The Practical Filmmaker.