If you love fashion and making films, check out the Wardrobe Department
This week we have Ashley Heathcock to share how she went from working for a local designer in New Orleans to designing costumes for TV shows and movies. In this episode, she talks about how she got started, the rules of the trade, and joining the costume guild.
Ashley has worked on Magnum PI, Bright, and Dawn of the Planet of the Apes.
Watch to learn how you can turn your love for fashion and filmmaking into a full-time gig.
Key points:
2:05 – Getting started
Skip to: 5:49 Wardrobe Dept terms7:15 – Modifying and creating pieces
8:46 – What happens to costumes after the shoot
11:21 – Aging and dyeing process tips
16:34 – Difference between a bad and good job
21:30 – How early in the process are you brought in
22:12 – Pay rate for costumers
22:44 – Prepping costume truck
26:21 – Expectations for pay
32:38 – Getting started in the union
33:44 – Finding other costume designers
35:04 – Favorite Gear
39:35 – Something going wrong
43:55 – Weaving personality into the design
44:41 – Best places to get materials
Links
Lanewood StuIMDB
Local 478 Union New Orleans
Costume Desing Guild
Sync on Set
Mood Fabrics
Connect on Instagram
Website
Instagram
Transcript
Ashley Heathcock (00:00):
It was my first week of shooting on a new job, and I get all the costumes approved, which means I try them on the actors before I get them approved. And that time when I try it on the actors is usually our safe place, where I find out if they like something or they don’t like something. Now, I’m not going to ever push to put something an actor doesn’t on them, because it would affect that performance and your relationship with them, so you have to live in this world of pleasing everybody.
(00:30):
So that had already happened, so you think you’re doing good, you have all your costumes prepped. I’m just on the truck to make sure everything goes okay, because then they’re going to be on set soon. And then the actress walks in on the truck, crying that she did not like the dress and didn’t remember trying it on, and I’d already gotten approved by producers and directors before this moment, and it’s going to be shooting in, I think, 20 minutes It’s supposed to be on camera.
Tanya Musgrave (01:03):
Welcome to the Practical Filmmaker, an educational podcast brought to you by the Filmmaker Institute and Sunscreen Film Festival, where industry professionals talk nuts and bolts and the steps they took to find their success today. On today’s show, costume designer, Ashley Heathcock talks the inner workings of the wardrobe department from her experience in film, commercials, and now, network television. Find the full transcripts and more at thepracticalfilmmaker.com. I’m your host, Tanya Musgrave, and today we get to dive into the world of wardrobe with costume designer Ashley Heathcock, whose work can be seen in Magnum PI, Big Sky, Venom, Bright, The Orville, and the upcoming Music Box film. Please Baby, Please. Welcome to the show.
Ashley Heathcock (01:40):
Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here.
Tanya Musgrave (01:43):
Yes, this is going to be fun, because I have not had anybody in wardrobe on this podcast yet. And so, buckle up, because I got a lot of questions.
Ashley Heathcock (01:54):
I feel so honored.
Tanya Musgrave (01:57):
Yes.
Ashley Heathcock (01:58):
For all of us costume people out there.
Tanya Musgrave (02:01):
Yeah, you got to represent. No pressure.
Ashley Heathcock (02:02):
Yeah, I know.
Tanya Musgrave (02:05):
So let’s start with how you got to where you are now.
Ashley Heathcock (02:08):
All right. It’s a pretty lengthy story, so I’ll try to sum it up, but I studied fashion, I didn’t study film or costume design. I do know that that’s available now for people in college, and it probably was when I was in college too, but I was drawing clothes in high school, and someone suggested fashion design, so that’s what I did. And then I graduated from a university in London, met some extraordinary people there, and then wound up in Austin, Texas post-college, worked for a local fashion designer, and then eventually worked for a local designer in New Orleans. And it was at the time when the New Orleans film scene had started to get pretty big, so I was hearing about it around town, like Tremé was shooting there, and other movies, and then the first time I was like, “Wait a second, I wonder if all these skills I have would transfer over to who is ever putting clothes on these actors.” And then I sent my resume to probably every production email and heard nothing, as we all know how that goes sometimes.
Tanya Musgrave (03:16):
I got to love those gold email [inaudible 00:03:17].
Ashley Heathcock (03:17):
And I was like, “I don’t understand, I have a fashion degree, not everybody’s going to have that.” And it’s just, they get so many emails. So I randomly met a producer in the city, and I knew he was a producer for some reason, and he was impressed that I knew he was. He was like, “How did you pick up on that?” I’m like, “I don’t know.” And then I was like, “So tell me, how do you get ahead, and how do you get into this industry? Is it all who?” And he said, “It is like that. Sometimes you do just need an invitation.” And he did not know me at all, but I was like, “Could you please let your costume person know that I would love to be an intern, not even a paid position.” And somehow talked to the costume supervisor into… I don’t know if you had to twist her arm or not, but she was open to interviewing me, and that was my first interview, and that was 12 years ago.
Tanya Musgrave (04:11):
How did that go?
Ashley Heathcock (04:13):
I was so nervous.
Tanya Musgrave (04:15):
What do you say in that kind of thing in order to get your actual first break onto a set? Because I believe that your IMDB, you started on some pretty good stuff.
Ashley Heathcock (04:25):
Some of it, some. Some you never heard of too.
Tanya Musgrave (04:28):
Don’t we all.
Ashley Heathcock (04:28):
Yeah. Well, thanks. Well, she was very experienced for local supervisor, and had worked her way up too. And I brought my little resume in, which had my education on there and some internships. And she was impressed with… Well, I almost got into Project Runway, almost.
Tanya Musgrave (04:50):
Okay.
Ashley Heathcock (04:51):
Always a bridesmaid. And that was on there because I had made it down to top 50. And I think that was the biggest conversation starter we had. And then she was just like, “I like you, I’m going to take a chance on you.” And we’ll-
Tanya Musgrave (05:07):
Nice.
Ashley Heathcock (05:07):
Yeah, we’ll teach you everything that we can about how this business works and how it works in costumes.
Tanya Musgrave (05:13):
Amazing.
Ashley Heathcock (05:14):
Yeah. And she also taught me a lot about unions too.
Tanya Musgrave (05:19):
Okay.
Ashley Heathcock (05:19):
And how to join, and basically things to look out for when you’re on other union shows and you might be taken advantage of as a PA. Yeah, so I went from intern to costume PA, and then to seamstress, to fitter, to ager/dyer, set costumer, key costumer, assistant costume designer, now I’m a costume designer.
Tanya Musgrave (05:42):
Okay, okay, okay. So, for those who are just starting off on this, can you give an example of the different terms? You said costumer and ager/dyer and that kind of a thing. And I think you had mentioned stylist before. What are the differences between all of these terms?
Ashley Heathcock (06:00):
Good question. A lot of the times you will do some of the same things a stylists will do, which, I guess the biggest difference for me is probably the type of media it is. If it’s a commercial or music video, you’re more likely to be doing stylist work. Mostly, the biggest difference for me, and I could be wrong, and I bet other people have different definitions for this, but for me, costumers and costume designers work towards a story. There’s a lot more behind the character. And then, as a stylist, I think it is really more of a visual goal that you’re trying to achieve with other people there, like the art director there, and that’s more of print work or short media, like music video, where it’s more about the imagery than the story. So, to me, that’s a major difference.
Tanya Musgrave (07:04):
I’m guessing that stylist is more like you’re more just shopping for the right look. And costume designing, are you actually designing? You graduated with fashion, so are you creating these pieces? Are you just modifying, or…
Ashley Heathcock (07:20):
Lot of modifying.
Tanya Musgrave (07:21):
Okay.
Ashley Heathcock (07:22):
Sometimes you do create things, you do design something from… That part is what I love, from sketch to actualization, and it’s on a body. That’s very fun, and you get to use all of those creative skills. But a lot of times you are curating, and when you do that, you do everything from shop it, you dye it, you can change the color, you change the fit of it, you might change out the collar, you do so many different modifications to make it right for the character, so that’s still fun too.
(07:59):
And then, normally, yeah, stylist, you’re probably going more for whatever the look of the shoot is than just building the character. But we still steam clothes, we still do a lot of the same things. We go [inaudible 00:08:18] and last look. And then, the length of the job is different too. Stylist gigs are pretty short. Costumer jobs could be… They could be short and they could be six months. Some films, six months.
Tanya Musgrave (07:59):
Wow.
Ashley Heathcock (07:59):
Yeah.
Tanya Musgrave (08:31):
Wow, okay, okay.
Ashley Heathcock (08:33):
Yeah, like big budget movies, normally that’s half a year.
Tanya Musgrave (08:37):
Yeah. I had a very random question pop into my head. So what happens to these clothes afterwards? Because I had a friend who worked at a place that took all of the old props and that kind of thing, and they sold… It was a warehouse that sold old props and stuff like that. Is there something like that for costumers, or do they just like, “Well, it’s Goodwill.” And that kind of a thing, or are the kept, do they go to the production? Do you handle that? Do you have to wash them and get rid of them, or what happens to them?
Ashley Heathcock (09:10):
Yeah, sometimes I am a part of wrap. So we have big rental houses, like props has as well. Costume rental houses, especially if you’re on a period shoot.
Tanya Musgrave (09:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ashley Heathcock (09:22):
You might do a big rental pool, so then all of your rentals will go back to that rental house. Normally how it goes is, whatever’s purchased for the studio, it’s their property, and sometimes they have… Like the Fox lot has their own costume shop, so it could go back there.
Tanya Musgrave (09:41):
Oh, okay, okay.
Ashley Heathcock (09:42):
And Sony has one. But sometimes on smaller stuff, when it’s a smaller company, like a indie film, they might sell it off or they might donate it for a tax write off.
Tanya Musgrave (09:57):
Oh, okay, okay.
Ashley Heathcock (09:58):
It varies.
Tanya Musgrave (10:00):
Yeah, nice.
Ashley Heathcock (10:01):
Yeah.
Tanya Musgrave (10:02):
So the one thing that I’ve had stuck in my head, that I learned from a costume designer. I’m sure people are tired of this single fact that I know. I’m sure they’re begging me to learn something else. It’s the rule of three textures, and I see it everywhere now, and when I look at costume, it’s just combining at least three different textures, like metal, fur, leather, cotton, everything. Is there a rule of the trade that you’ve picked up like that, something that you always look for?
Ashley Heathcock (10:28):
Oh, I think everyone has maybe a signature to what they do, like different costume designers, you might-
Tanya Musgrave (10:39):
Could you give me an example?
Ashley Heathcock (10:41):
Well, for me, you’re going to always see texture. And I happen to be wearing something with texture. I also mix a lot of patterns too, if I’m allowed to. It depends on the story, yeah, on the job.
(10:55):
And then other designers, maybe they only do sci-fi, which is a pretty cool category. I feel like sometimes work begets work, so you have to maybe start out in sci-fi to keep getting them. But as a growing designer, I don’t know if I have the luxury of choice, I have to see what presents itself.
Tanya Musgrave (11:19):
Yeah, absolutely. It says in your bio that you honed the aging and dyeing process on Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, and we actually have a listener question who asked for some good tips for that. So I don’t know, give us your best. Or is it an industry secret? Are there lots of those?
Ashley Heathcock (11:35):
Oh, I love to share. I think our secrets are always evolving, meaning you’re always going to pick up something new from somebody else, and maybe it’s a different way of doing the same job, so I love to share, because I’m going to learn from other people along the way. But aging and dying, so there’s the dye work, where you can change the color, many different things, and that has a lot to do with what a garment is made of, textiles, what’s natural, what’s not natural, and there’s different dyes for different types of textiles. That’s a skill all in its own. You have to be really good with color, especially if it’s already base color. If it’s not white, and it’s yellow, and you’re trying to push it red, you have to think about all these different colors you can add to in existing color to make it red.
(12:31):
And then there’s the aging section, which is making something look lived in, or making something look like a hundred years old, and trying to make it be as authentic as possible. And I always suggest to any young ager/dyer, to look at reference photos, photos of things that do actually read that period or that age, or if it’s burned, try to find fibers that have been burned. And then, I probably do things more like of a natural pattern. You want it to look real, and there’s a lot of shading involved. And I’d say, you can get this airbrush kit at Harbor Freight for $90, and it has a compressor and an airbrush, and yeah, it’s not the highest quality, but it’ll work just fine for learning on it. And if you’re ever working in… Like I’ve worked in a lot of small towns, randomly, and you need an airbrush all of a sudden. There’s always a Harbor Freight, you can just… There’s not always an art store, but there is always a Harbor Freight.
Tanya Musgrave (13:41):
So it’s paint, a lot of the aging and stuff. It’s not like somebody just went and ran it under a car, or something like that. I don’t know.
Ashley Heathcock (13:48):
It’s so funny, I’ve heard stories of directors doing that on maybe some of their first projects, and then they’re like, “Oh Lord.” And then there’s tire marks, because that would happen.
(14:00):
But you have to sand it, and you have to think about when you put it on, where your fingers are hitting, and the weight of things in your pocket over a long period of time. So when you’re aging it down, you might put weights in it, and then you might hit it with some sandpaper. And then, once you brush back some of the fibers, then you probably come in and put some shading, and then you come in and put some highlights.
Tanya Musgrave (14:26):
Wow.
Ashley Heathcock (14:26):
Yeah, it’s like a multimedia process, which is really fun, and really hands on.
Tanya Musgrave (14:31):
So, how long does one piece usually take, the process of it?
Ashley Heathcock (14:38):
It depends on what you’re trying to achieve. For general, let’s just say we want someone to look really down, and maybe they haven’t washed their clothes in a week or so, that doesn’t take very long. But if you’re trying… I worked on a project where they dug someone up that had been in the ground in Louisiana mold for a long time. And so, I had to make this gown look like it had been in there, and you could use your imagination, because there’s not really any images of that, so…
Tanya Musgrave (15:17):
No, or ones that you would want to see, no.
Ashley Heathcock (15:21):
[inaudible 00:15:21] ones you want to look at. Yeah, a lot of that’s pulling out the saturation. You’re wanting the colors to fade. And if it’s silk, it would start to dry rot, you have to make that effect. And then, on that particular project, I made something that looked like mold, so it had a little bit of a texture to it.
Tanya Musgrave (15:41):
Wow, wow.
Ashley Heathcock (15:42):
The flocking. You know the flocking things that people use, I guess when they’re making small models of houses, and it might be how the grass is made, it’s like this fibers.
Tanya Musgrave (15:55):
[inaudible 00:15:55].
Ashley Heathcock (15:55):
Yeah, you’ll find it at Joanne’s. So I got some of that and then I just airbrushed it to the right colors and stuff, look like mold.
Tanya Musgrave (16:06):
Wow, that is so cool. I always thought it would be really fun to just assist in wardrobe costuming, art, that whole entire thing. I would have a blast. Someone would probably have to drag me off the set, just like, “Okay, this person’s a little too excited.”
Ashley Heathcock (16:21):
You’d probably love the aging and dying shop. I feel like that’s definitely where you combine art and the medium of clothes, it’s together.
Tanya Musgrave (16:30):
Yeah. So what’s an insider tell, I guess, the difference between a shoddy job and a smashing job?
Ashley Heathcock (16:40):
For aging?
Tanya Musgrave (16:42):
I mean aging and dying is one thing, but even just when you watch a film that you… Like that is going to win an Oscar, what is it that makes them that, and a second rate thing?
Ashley Heathcock (16:57):
I think it maybe be the right level of noticing the clothes. When you notice them too much, for me, and obviously I’m in costume, so I’m looking at it really hard, maybe it’s because it doesn’t belong, or if it is very new or if two people were wearing the same color, you’re like, “Oh no, did anybody think about that?” Because those are all things we try not to do.
(17:26):
And then, for aging, I guess the big tell tale would be outlining. I mentioned earlier where your fingers might touch your collar, wouldn’t age just right around the edge, you would do something like a snake, because that’s really how you would touch something, it wouldn’t just be aging the outline of something, if that makes sense.
Tanya Musgrave (17:47):
Yeah. No, that makes a ton of sense. Whoa, it’s just the things that you never think about. Wow, so that’s one thing for aging and dyeing and noticing things. How about on set? So what is something that somebody could do that would actually really impress you, as in, “I’m going to hire you back. You could be my assistant.”
Ashley Heathcock (18:11):
Okay, there’s all these different positions. If you are wanting to be a designer, I think the best way to really learn from one is to follow one around. If you’re assisting and you don’t know what to do, just make sure you’re always with that designer, because they’re going to have an idea and they’re going to be like, “Oh, you know what would be really great for this fitting, and I don’t have it in here…” And you got to be right there to know what it is. And you can be like, “Let me go look for it.” It’s just being very close to whatever’s happening, whatever’s changing. And I know, sometimes when we start out, we don’t know what to do, but I think being readily available and just having that hustle and good attitude goes so far. I see good hustle, and then they might be new, but I’ll be like, “I want them back.”
Tanya Musgrave (19:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you were talking about falling around that costume designer, I know that there’s a lot of… There is a lot of setiquette when it comes to collaboration, like who is allowed to collaborate and who just needs to be silent. When you are following around that costume designer and she’s like, “Oh, I wish I had this.” Would there ever be a time when you could say, “Okay, we don’t have that. I could go out and get it, but we have this, what if we did this?” Is that acceptable collaboration, or is that, just leave that up to her.
Ashley Heathcock (19:42):
I think it depends on who you’re working with. I want that, as a designer. We do have a design team within our department, where I have an ACD or a key customer, and we have a lot of those conversations.
Tanya Musgrave (19:42):
ACD?
Ashley Heathcock (19:57):
Sorry, assistant costume designer.
Tanya Musgrave (19:59):
Got it.
Ashley Heathcock (19:59):
Yep, it’s just a mouthful.
Tanya Musgrave (20:02):
No, I got it.
Ashley Heathcock (20:05):
So there’s a lot of talk on my team, where we’re brainstorming, or problem solving, or coming up with solutions. And so, me as a person, I don’t mind. There might be other designers out there that might feel differently, or maybe they might want it from someone on their design team, and maybe not someone in a different area of costumes.
(20:28):
The only time I don’t like it, I’ll say, is you have to know when you’re in the presence of… If you’re on set and you can’t change something, and you have to have a solution, I think you have to be very careful with what you suggest, because you’re around others, and you might only have 10 minutes to fix something, so you don’t want a lot of loud suggestions that are not feasible.
Tanya Musgrave (20:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Ashley Heathcock (20:59):
You might just want to keep it contained, and then have subtle, something you can do really quickly. If you’re in the presence of an actor too, there’s things that you don’t want to get in their head, and they’re focusing on their lines, or maybe they’re having those little camera jitters. You got to protect their head space too, so that comes into play.
Tanya Musgrave (21:27):
How early in the process are you brought in?
Ashley Heathcock (21:33):
Normally.
Tanya Musgrave (21:36):
Ideally.
Ashley Heathcock (21:37):
Ideally, I’m hired after the production designer. It does depend on the budget for the movie. I’ve done some smaller budget films, indies, and the prep I had was total of three weeks, which is insane, and one week being in Los Angeles and then maybe two on location.
Tanya Musgrave (22:00):
Wow, okay.
Ashley Heathcock (22:03):
Those are really hard.
Tanya Musgrave (22:05):
Yeah. Okay, so we talk a lot about budget and pay on this podcast as well. So is this a weekly rate, or is this a project rate? How are things done in the costuming [inaudible 00:22:22]?
Ashley Heathcock (22:22):
Sure. For me, now being a designer, I’m pretty much a weekly rate.
Tanya Musgrave (22:28):
Okay.
Ashley Heathcock (22:30):
But when I started out as a costumer, it’s an hourly rate, normally. For a costumer, we would bring him on during prep, to pretty much start getting the clothes ready to go onto the costume truck. So, me as a designer, would probably have already done the fittings with my design team, and then the customers would get a week of prep to prep your clothes to go on the costume truck for either the film or the TV show, and making sure you have everything on the truck. That’s comfort needs too, like you have socks, and you have to have undergarments. I know it’s things you would maybe think about because it’s under the costume, and comfort shoes, warming coats, rain coats.
Tanya Musgrave (23:18):
Wow, that comes from you guys, that’s not like an actor’s assistant making sure that they have the shoes to walk in.
Ashley Heathcock (23:26):
Right, yeah, that normally comes from us.
Tanya Musgrave (23:30):
Wow, okay.
Ashley Heathcock (23:30):
That PAs help out with the umbrellas, but I’ve been on shows where costumes provides the umbrellas too.
Tanya Musgrave (23:38):
When you’re talking about prepping the truck, is that, I don’t know, labeling, like this is this character on this day? Or are they just folding? I don’t know.
Ashley Heathcock (23:47):
Well, we have our costume trucks. These are great questions. Who would know this? [inaudible 00:23:54] been on one. So they’re pretty much long bars, two bars where you can hang clothes, and within all of this hanging, you have a character’s closets, and in their closets, I don’t like to have… Movies are different, but I don’t like to have anything on the truck, that’s not… It hasn’t been worn before, because I’m doing the prepping at the office, that’s where I’m fitting them, so I want all of the things we haven’t used yet for the next fitting and then the next fitting, and then as they get selected and approved, they go to the truck, and then they get prepped the morning of, and then they go on the actor, and then they go back in the closet, because you’re going to come back to that scene or that day later, because we don’t shoot an order, or we might have an insert shot, and then you’ll need what we’ve already shot, so that’s where it lives.
(24:49):
And then we do label those drawers, sock drawers, office supplies, we have shoe bags, we have garment bags, and then we also have a little bay area that is today’s work. And then, in today’s work, we would pull from all their closets, the costumes in the scene order that we’re shooting. It would be in that little area, so your days of costumes, and the truck costumer would prep that.
Tanya Musgrave (25:15):
Okay, okay, or checking them back in or something, because I’m watching this Boy Meets World rewatch podcast, I’m going back to my nostalgia days, and I remember Wilfred Dell was talking about how he… They were meticulous with their costumes. He said that he had gotten tracked down way later, after the wrap of the show, for a sock, for a sock that had gone missing. And I was just like, “How meticulous are these situations?” Are they That was crazy?
Ashley Heathcock (25:49):
I guess that sock was seen on camera. That’s the only reason [inaudible 00:25:54] it back.
Tanya Musgrave (25:54):
I guess, I guess, I have no idea. But they were working with Disney and they had their very specific things. They labeled all of them. I remember that Danielle Fishel, who played Topanga, she was talking about, in a throwback episode that they had, she was wearing Lucille Ball’s shoes, those were actually her shoes that she would wear, so I mean they’ve got quite a vault back there.
Ashley Heathcock (26:17):
Yeah, sure they do.
Tanya Musgrave (26:20):
So, for someone who’s entering into this field, for their expectations for pay, where could they go to get a feel of the land, what they could expect?
Ashley Heathcock (26:33):
Sure. So different unions have different websites. And I first started off… I’ll talk about the one in New Orleans, local 478. And it’s good to know what the union rate is, even if you’re going to do non-union shows, because it’s a good place to know where you could start negotiations. So if you could go to their website and look up the different rates. And I do think maybe, I could be getting this wrong, but starting rate for customers is somewhere like high twenties or low thirties an hour in that chapter-
Tanya Musgrave (27:12):
In that chapter, okay.
Ashley Heathcock (27:13):
Yeah, because you have to think of cost of living is higher in Los Angeles, it’s higher in New York, those rates are going to be higher because of cost of living. So it’s good to know wherever you are, wherever you’re located, that if there’s a local chapter, if it’s major city, bet you there is one, and you can go to their website and find out their scale rates. It’s called scale, the starting level of payment.
Tanya Musgrave (27:35):
Nice.
Ashley Heathcock (27:36):
Yeah.
Tanya Musgrave (27:37):
Nice. So-
Ashley Heathcock (27:38):
I did that. I think I googled that when I was going into costumes. So I was like, “What did costume designs make?” All over the place.
Tanya Musgrave (27:44):
Yeah, that’s what I would be googling. I would’ve no idea. Now I’m going to be asking you. So you were talking about different guilds and unions, and I’m curious, what would it take to get into your particular guild or union? Is it a union or is it a guild? Is it the same thing?
Ashley Heathcock (28:09):
It’s both. Ours is both, but yeah.
Tanya Musgrave (28:11):
Oh, okay.
Ashley Heathcock (28:12):
It’s called the Guild. It’s still a union, though. I don’t really know why, but yeah, to get in the costume designer guild, you have to have credit as an illustrator, an assistant costume designer-
Tanya Musgrave (28:31):
Illustrator? Like…
Ashley Heathcock (28:33):
Costume illustrator.
Tanya Musgrave (28:35):
Oh, okay, because I’m just like, “Illustration, as in Adobe Illustrator?”
Ashley Heathcock (28:41):
Yeah, there’s digital costume illustrators out there. They’re there for the design guild, because they work so closely with a designer to get these illustrations done, which a lot of time when you’re making something, the actual design, the stuff we were talking about earlier, you will have to get an image, or an idea, or an illustration approved before you start the construction of it. And that’s [inaudible 00:29:09] really closely with the costume illustrator.
Tanya Musgrave (29:11):
Okay, okay, I get what you’re saying now. This is such a new world to me, that I’m like, “Illustrator, like Adobe Illustrator?”
Ashley Heathcock (29:19):
I know. They have really cool jobs. They pretty much draw for a living.
Tanya Musgrave (29:26):
Yeah. I wonder if animators…
Ashley Heathcock (29:29):
There’s some crossover. Yeah, there crossover for… I know some different costume illustrators that do concept art as well.
Tanya Musgrave (29:29):
Nice.
Ashley Heathcock (29:40):
So there’s a lot of crossover with that.
Tanya Musgrave (29:41):
Nice. So, sorry, I interrupted you. So illustrating, you start off, you have to have so many hours illustrating, and…
Ashley Heathcock (29:48):
Right. I think it’s a couple projects where you have that title, costume illustrator, assistant costume designer or designer, and it could be… I know for the guild, it could be a music video, it could be commercial, it does have to be union work, I believe. Music video, commercial or film or TV. So I got in on a small movie. It was union, but I was not even in Los Angeles. I got my requirements when I was living in New Orleans, so I applied over there with the intention of moving over there.
Tanya Musgrave (30:26):
Got it, got it. So we had someone in G&E here, that was talking about the dues for it, and it was a good seven to 12K, the dues to get into the guild or the union. Is wardrobe in that same…
Ashley Heathcock (30:42):
It is.
Tanya Musgrave (30:43):
Yeah?
Ashley Heathcock (30:43):
I remember I had to borrow money from my sister to join. It was like going all in on yourself. You’re like, “Okay, I’m just going to risk it. I’m just going to take that chance.” Because just because you join a guild, doesn’t mean you’re going to get work from it. It just means that you’re allowed to work on union shows in that title that you have.
Tanya Musgrave (31:11):
Right. So I don’t know, take me back to once you actually had that status. You were in the guild/union, you had paid your dues, now it comes to finding those gigs. Did you find that easier? How was that process of going from, okay, I’m here, I’m new, to actually being comfortable within these new walls?
Ashley Heathcock (31:33):
Right. Well, I knew it was a risk, even from just borrowing money from my sister. And then I went out to LA. Before I moved there, I was like, “Let me see if I could get work.” And I’d saved up some money to stay out there for a bit. And so, I was already a costumer in a union, but I wanted to grow, and I felt like if I didn’t go out to LA to try to work as an assistant costume designers for big time designers where I’m going to learn a lot. I don’t know if I’m ever going to achieve that in my small pond. I wasn’t sure. And plus, it was at the time when a lot of films were leaving New Orleans, because the incentive was capped.
(32:16):
So I’m back in LA, and my strategy was, and you remember I mentioned hustle, I really made a list of every single costume designer I had worked with in New Orleans that was from Los Angeles, that I felt like I had a good rapport with, and just text them, and was like, “Can I buy you coffee? Can I buy you lunch?” And this was maybe even six years for me, not even speaking to a person, but I just was like, “What’s the worst thing they could say? Oh probably nothing.”
(32:46):
And I did actually rekindle a lot of those relationships, and then I just let everybody know that I was there and that I could work as an assistant designer. But when you’re new, that’s a big position to be in control of, because you’re like co-captain of a ship, and it’s hard to start out, so I was like, “Or I could be an additional assistant designer.” Which is extra help.
(33:15):
So I got hired as an additional assistant designer for some of the American Horror Stories because I had worked with that designer in New Orleans, and that really helped. And then that was out on the Fox lot, and then I worked with them and their shopper, and then their shopper would take me to the other costume houses, take me to the fabric stores, and that started to help me get my bearings for working in Los Angeles.
Tanya Musgrave (33:41):
Yeah, absolutely. So where do people who don’t necessarily have those six year old connections, where do people find other costume designers or resources? Twitter’s huge for screen writing communities, but how about for the fashion wardrobe, costing department?
Ashley Heathcock (33:59):
Sure. I think social media is a great place. When I was just trying to become a baby costumer in New Orleans, that designer that I worked with in Los Angeles, I messaged her on Facebook before she came to New Orleans, and I was like, “So impressed with your career. I’d loved the opportunity to work with you and learn from you.” And then, eventually I did work with her. I don’t know if it was from that message, or if it was-
Tanya Musgrave (34:27):
Well, that started it for sure. It wasn’t going to happen without it.
Ashley Heathcock (34:31):
I get messages from young people interested in costumes, maybe getting out of college, and I might not get back to him right away, depending on what’s going on with work, if I’m swamped, but I really do try to message everybody back and give them pointers on how to get in. And basically, you got to start as a PA, is the best way to do it. But how do you get those jobs? You got to find out who you want to work with and find a way to contact them.
Tanya Musgrave (34:59):
Nice. So, okay, now we’re going to ask about the tools of your trade. You did mention an airbrusher.
Ashley Heathcock (35:07):
That’s true.
Tanya Musgrave (35:08):
But maybe I’ll make that off limits, so you have to pick something else.
Ashley Heathcock (35:08):
Okay.
Tanya Musgrave (35:12):
Now, so what gear or gadget is a good old reliable, it’s always there for you?
Ashley Heathcock (35:18):
Measuring tape.
Tanya Musgrave (35:21):
Got it. Okay. Is there a particularly good one that you like, or does it not matter?
Ashley Heathcock (35:25):
A retractable one.
Tanya Musgrave (35:29):
Okay.
Ashley Heathcock (35:31):
Tiny scissors.
Tanya Musgrave (35:34):
Got you. Got you. Now, I remember my mom getting these scissors once, and she’s a seamstress, and so she would always sew our stuff when we were kids and stuff like that. Nothing huge, big time but I remember she got me Singer scissors, and I think when I was young she caught me cutting paper with it.
Ashley Heathcock (35:53):
Uh-oh.
Tanya Musgrave (35:56):
Don’t you ever.
Ashley Heathcock (35:57):
Yeah, those are good scissors. I know where she’s coming from.
Tanya Musgrave (36:02):
Yeah, apparently paper is bad for scissors.
Ashley Heathcock (36:05):
Yeah.
Tanya Musgrave (36:05):
So, all right, what about your new favorite gadget, something that revolutionizes how you work, or your favorite industry related new purchase?
Ashley Heathcock (36:15):
Right. So there’s this company called SyncOnSet, I don’t know if you’ve heard of them or not.
Tanya Musgrave (36:23):
Mm-mm, no.
Ashley Heathcock (36:23):
But they’re pretty much an app or a website that helps you track continuity, and it starts from breaking down a script, that’s where it starts with. And we have to always break down a script in the beginning, to know how many changes a character has, and then know how many scenes these characters are in with these characters, so SyncOnSet’s a really easy way to break down a script, and it saves a lot of time, and also track continuity, however, you do have to pay for it.
(36:58):
So if you’re starting out, and I’ve done this a lot on short films and smaller projects, you can use SyncOnSet for free for two weeks. So there is a way to still use it for smaller projects, and I like to even do a breakdown before an interview for a job, because it really helps me know the scope of the project, like how many costumes in the entire project. And then, let’s say I get hired, and then I have to talk about crew and budget with the producers, I need to know those things before I have those conversations, so that’s why I like that program a lot.
Tanya Musgrave (37:44):
Nice, nice.
Ashley Heathcock (37:45):
I always have… I’ll just show you.
Tanya Musgrave (37:48):
Oh yeah, that’s great.
Ashley Heathcock (37:49):
A Bible. Well, in here, this is TV, so I’ll have at least four or five scripts for episodes. I’m always prepping one and I’m always shooting one, but then I might like to have the episode before because of reshoots or inserts, and then the one coming up. But even on a film, I’ll have the script, I’ll have the breakdown in here.
(38:15):
On a play, I did a play, what I had instead of a breakdown, I had every actor’s headshot, so I could see their complexion when I was pulling their costumes, and I had their measurements, and it was a cast of 40, so I all their info in here. So that’s something… It changes for the job, so yeah, it’s new. It’s still my way of staying organized.
Tanya Musgrave (38:44):
Yeah. You said 40 people. Is that a lot, or would you say that, okay… Oh, I just recently saw, was is it 36 Steps? It was a show where four cast members played over a 150 characters, so there are lots of costume changes.
Ashley Heathcock (39:07):
Yeah, sounds like.
Tanya Musgrave (39:12):
But I don’t know, I think when you look at a job, if you see something like 80, or if you see something like 5, or 20, what’s typical for, I don’t know, say even a commercial? Commercial, What’s typical?
Ashley Heathcock (39:23):
Probably 12, maybe. Maybe 12 cast in a commercial.
Tanya Musgrave (39:28):
Okay. All right. Okay, so one of my favorite questions to ask is a significant oh no moment where something went wrong, massively wrong. How did you fix it?
Ashley Heathcock (39:41):
Okay, I got a story.
Tanya Musgrave (39:43):
Okay, yes.
Ashley Heathcock (39:45):
I’ll leave names out.
Tanya Musgrave (39:46):
Good.
Ashley Heathcock (39:48):
But it was my first week of shooting on a new job, and I get all the costumes approved, which means I try them on the actors before I get them approved. And that in that time when I tried on the actors is usually our safe place, where I find out if they like something or they don’t like something. Now, I’m not going to ever push to put something an actor doesn’t on them because it would affect the performance and your relationship with them, so you have to live in this world of pleasing everybody. So, that had already happened, so you think you’re doing good, you have all your costumes prepped, I’m just on the truck to make sure everything goes okay, because then they’re going to be on set soon, and then the actress walks in on the truck, crying that she did not like the dress and didn’t remember trying it on.
(40:39):
And I’d already gotten approved by producers and directors before this moment, and it’s going to be shooting in, I think, 20 minutes, it’s supposed to be on camera. And I can’t change something without getting it approved, because it’s like for network TV, so I just was like, “Okay, let’s look in the mirror together. I want to know what it is that makes you feel this way. I want to know what about this dress that you don’t like.” And then part of the neck line, so she opened up the button, and she was like, “This is not so bad here.” But then it was the rest of the dress that [inaudible 00:41:18] was hiding her figure. Mostly that was part of the problem, and you have to just think quickly, and I was like, “What if it was a top? What if it was just a top with a little peplum, and you wear jeans?”
(41:34):
And she immediately was like, “I would love it. I would love it if it was.” Because the problem was gone, you could [inaudible 00:41:41] her shape. And she was like, “Can you do that?” And I was like, “Yep, I think we can make it happen.” So I was like, “Just give me 15 minutes.” And she left the trailer, and I had to put the dress on the ground because it was the only way I could cut a straight line, and it was a big circle skirt, and we just went for it. I was just like, “Somebody thread the machine, somebody get the iron ready.” And then it was a team effort for sure, but she was on camera in 15 minutes, and then-
Tanya Musgrave (42:08):
Oh my gosh, and she loved it.
Ashley Heathcock (42:09):
She did. And then, in the meantime I had to email the showrunner and just be like, “So and so didn’t like the dress. My solution is to make it a top. Do you approve?” I had to make it quick. And then they just wrote back “Approved”, because everybody knows that getting something on camera is pretty important. And it was still keeping the color the same, neckline was still same, so it would’ve been affect her in the scene with other people and their colors, so it was just like…
Tanya Musgrave (42:39):
Mercy. And the showrunner actually was there to reply. That’s awesome too.
Ashley Heathcock (42:44):
Yeah, that particular job, they were always on it, and answered lightning fast.
Tanya Musgrave (42:52):
Oh my gosh. I think that’s a level of creativity that I think is… The problem solving, I think is a lot of fun. I love those types of that you got 20 minutes, you got a solution, and you’re not entertaining ideas like, “Well, do we get another dress? Do we have to stop things, switch scenes?” Or what have you. You got it and you got it done, that’s amazing.
Ashley Heathcock (43:19):
It was a small victory for sure. And then the AD’s outside, and was like, “What do I tell the line producer?” He’s like, “We didn’t hold up camera, but they just want to know what’s going on.” I was like, “Just tell him we had a Project Runway moment, and it’s handled.”
Tanya Musgrave (43:35):
Yes. Tell him that the boss handled it. Okay, so we have some listener questions from our Insta at Practical Filmmaker, I post upcoming guests in the story, so you can ask some questions. This one comes from Mekayla Hounslow in Tennessee. “When unspecified, how do you weave a person’s personality or story into designs?”
Ashley Heathcock (44:00):
Okay, so when unspecified, meaning there’s not clues in the script?
Tanya Musgrave (44:07):
Yeah, mm-hmm.
Ashley Heathcock (44:09):
I would probably think about the characters that they’re around, and I’d make up my own story then. I’d have to be like, “Well, she’s here for a reason.” Or he, or they, and I’d have to probably make up my own story a little bit, but then I still have to dress a scene cohesively, so then whatever the other characters are wearing would also effect how I would dress this character.
Tanya Musgrave (44:38):
Got you, got you. And this one comes from Rachel Rocka in Michigan. “I’d love to know your top places to get unusual fabric and materials. Where do the pros shop, or are they hunting online, in bigger cities and around hardware stores?”
Ashley Heathcock (44:57):
There’s this place in Los Angeles called Rag Finders, Downtown LA.
Tanya Musgrave (45:04):
Do they ship?
Ashley Heathcock (45:09):
I don’t know. I don’t know if they ship, but this is a place that has old runs of fabric that you can’t find anymore. And it’s huge, you just never know what you’re going to find there. And you go down in this basement, and there’s like a room attached to a room, and it’s just like maze at fabric. That place, I think, is pretty unique. Mood Fabrics you can shop online. Mood always has really great fabrics. I do love to thrift too. I will take fabric from an existing garment if I’m in love with it and change it into something else.
Tanya Musgrave (45:46):
Nice. She also wanted to know, “What’s your recommendation for sewing forms, brand type, most versatility or quality sewing?” Forms in general, not necessarily just for women or dresses.
Ashley Heathcock (45:58):
I like the forms that have collapsible shoulders, personally.
Tanya Musgrave (46:03):
Okay.
Ashley Heathcock (46:03):
Because when you’re making something fitted on a person, they have to be able to get in and out of it, and when we get dressed, as people, we put our arms up, and it makes the [inaudible 00:46:15] through here. So unless the form can do that, you’re not going to get a great idea of, can they squeeze into this or not?
Tanya Musgrave (46:23):
Yeah, yeah, interesting, interesting. Is there a particular brand that you like to work with?
Ashley Heathcock (46:29):
Mm-mm, I don’t have a brand for that. Had a few different ones over the years.
Tanya Musgrave (46:33):
Okay, nice. How do people find you or follow your work? Shameless plug up.
Ashley Heathcock (46:37):
Oh sure. I’m on Instagram as Heathcock_costume_designer, and then I’m on Facebook too, just Ashley Heathcock, and I have a website, ashleyheathcock.com. You could send me a message from my website too. I get those.
Tanya Musgrave (46:54):
And the one question that I always wrap up with, what questions should I have asked you?
Ashley Heathcock (47:00):
Oh, I don’t know. I’m thankful that people want to learn more about this job. It is hard, and I will say that because the hours. Most people in this industry work minimum 12 hour days, and the length of time that you’re at work, and maybe not at home with your family can be tough.
Tanya Musgrave (47:21):
That is something that we talk a lot about as well, just the practicality of a lifestyle and how it fits in with… Because old Hollywood, it was just like, “Well, we’re going to run you over, and if you can’t stand the the heat, stay out of the kitchen.” Kind of a thing. But there has been a bit of a shift in balance and boundaries, and we talk about healthy boundaries a lot on this as well. Can you think of a time where, for your own good, you said no?
Ashley Heathcock (47:51):
Oh, it might not have been for my own good.
Tanya Musgrave (47:52):
Oh.
Ashley Heathcock (47:54):
But I will say no if I feel like something’s unsafe. Sometimes you have to go with safety over aesthetics if it’s for a stunt actor. Maybe the shoes don’t match, and that’s fine, because they need to be in those shoes because it’s safer. I think that’s when it’s perfectly a good time to say no. And then, also, us as filmmakers in TV and show makers, we go into a lot of locations to shoot exteriors that might be a protected area or a national forest, and you just got to make sure that we’re not leaving a big footprint there. What we’re doing can’t be more important than the space we’re in.
Tanya Musgrave (48:38):
Absolutely.
Ashley Heathcock (48:40):
I have seen someone in a situation where the frogs were loud and we were out in the middle of nowhere. Someone asked locations to kill the frogs, and I piped up pretty big about that. This was a long time ago. And then it stopped, but I couldn’t believe it.
Tanya Musgrave (49:02):
Yeah.
Ashley Heathcock (49:03):
I was like, “I’m pretty sure this is illegal.”
Tanya Musgrave (49:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
Ashley Heathcock (49:03):
Is it.
Tanya Musgrave (49:03):
It is, yeah.
Ashley Heathcock (49:07):
Yeah, and it’s tough to say no. I don’t know if everybody does this, but if I’m being asked to change something last minute… Now, I understand sometimes it’s necessary, but if it’s really not necessary, and what it’s going to take to do that, people skipping meals, or people working over time or all night, they’d have to work all night to make it happen, and it’s not like we have a night crew, we have one [inaudible 00:49:37]. I won’t necessarily flat out be like, “No.” But I’ll be like, “Do you know what you’re asking? Do you know what the effects are?” And I will lay it out, because how would you know? How would you know how the clothes wind up on actors? You wouldn’t know that someone sewed on that garment eight hours already.
Tanya Musgrave (50:01):
Mercy, let me inform you. Thank you so much. This has been such a fascinating conversation.
Ashley Heathcock (50:09):
Thanks so much for the podcast and inviting me to be on.
Tanya Musgrave (50:12):
Of course. Thank you. Thank you for coming on. I think this is amazing, and we’ve gotten a whole… This has started, this has opened the door to more wardrobe style. I don’t know if I even have those terms right.
Ashley Heathcock (50:25):
All of it, we’re all of those things.
Tanya Musgrave (50:26):
Okay, okay. And thank you so much for being on this show. We really appreciate your time.
Ashley Heathcock (50:32):
Thank you so much.
Tanya Musgrave (50:33):
If you enjoyed this interview, follow us right here and on Instagram, ask us questions and check out more episodes at thepracticalfilmmaker.com. Be well, and God bless. We’ll see you next time on The Practical Filmmaker.